Those who praise the troops need to listen to them

To all those who serve, I wish you a Happy Veteran’s Day.

To those who previously served, thank you, and welcome home.

To my father, a veteran, I wish you a peaceful day, and good health always.

To those who will be singing the praises of the troops, I want you to listen to them first. Put your own agenda aside for one day and just listen to what those you claim to support are saying.

http://michellemalkin.com/2007/11/12/take-a-vet-to-dinner/

http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=Y2M2MjliN2ExYmViYzI2M2MwNDRjNjE0YWQ1ZDc2ZDA=

http://wwwwakeupamericans-spree.blogspot.com/2007/11/we-were-there.html

http://www.blogger.com/profile/00912629022439255684

My prediction is that the left, especially those running for President, will fail to simply let the solemn day go without running their opinionated mouths. Consider this column a pre-emptive strike.

So why will the left refuse to keep quiet and show some respect? Because they can’t. People who believe they are morally superior do not see the need to show respect of others they consider beneath them.

They can’t do it on July 4th. They can’t do it on 9/11. They can’t do it on Memorial Day, and they won’t do it on Veteran’s day.

The far left lunatic fringe will use the day to condemn baby killers, Fascists, war mongers, and blood for oil. Hillary, Obama and Edwards will take carefully triangulated steps to distance themselves from the most hateful of the remarks while expressing an understanding of why the haters feel their hatred, all the while supporting the troops.

At least the haters are sincere. They admit their contempt for everything decent and right in this world. The trio of insincerity trying to command soldiers want to support the troops without listening to those troops.

I challenge Americans everywhere to meet soldiers and ask their opinions. Listen to those opinions. No individual needs to be followed blindly, but if enough soldiers keep saying the same thing, their messages need to be heeded.

The troops believe in what they are doing. They believe we are winning in Iraq, and that things are getting better. They keep saying the Iraqi people appreciate their help. They do the hard work, and all they ask is that people support them, or at least, listen to them.

It is not possible to support the troops while condemning their mission, because they believe in their mission. Many soldiers are apolitical, but they will not respect people who pretend to support them while knifing them in the same speech.

Our nation succeeds because our military is under the control of our civilians. Bill Clinton was obeyed, but he was not respected. He was seen as a draft dodger who “loathed the military.” How can anyone respect another person who expresses a loathing towards them? Bill Clinton never apologized for that remark.

Hillary Clinton has wanted to be President since she was an angry young feminist. She has done everything publicly to backpedal from her anti-military stance. She joined the Armed Services Committee, where she “worked hard,” which is code for spending three days a week minding her manners and not offending people. In all fairness, that does not make her any less useless than any other senator that fails to anger everybody.

Yet Hillary needs to understand that her constant carping will come back to hurt her if she becomes President because she will have to lead the very people who keep expressing views that contradict her misinformed notions about the military. It is not that she is evil. It is that she simply does not know what she is talking about, in the same way I am not qualified to be a plumber or a carpenter.

Those who want to support the troops by bringing them home should simply ask the troops how they feel about this. Any boss, whether a CEO or a coach, needs to listen to feedback. So what can be construed as feedback?

For one, elections are feedback. George W. Bush won 75% of the military vote. These are secret ballots. Nobody forced soldiers to do this. The democratic nominee served his country, but he did not listen to what soldiers were saying. He talked at them, not with them. The Swift Boat Veterans were seen as republican operatives, but the lead Swift Boat people were democrats. They were not Pro-Bush. They were anti-Kerry because they believed he would be disastrous for the military.

I have never claimed that liberals hate America. I have never attacked their patriotism. I have said that on military matters, they simply have tin ears. Their minds are made up, and their positions are predetermined. They express how badly the war is going despite evidence that this is not the case. Liberals get their information from the Jayson Blair Times. They need to get their information from those with boots on the ground.

I have met soldiers in many cities ranging from Honolulu to San San Diego, and throughout America. Yes, some express displeasure, but the number is overwhelmingly minor. My sample size is large enough to establish credibility. The soldiers see steady progress. Why should we not believe them?

Some feel that military service is required to be President. Ronald Reagan is proof that this is not the case. However, hostility towards the military should be a disqualification. In 1992 it was the economy, but this is a post 9/11 world.

Hillary needs to come clean. She needs to make public her college thesis. If it is d@mning, she needs to state if she stands by it, or if she was young and naive. She needs to state if she would lift the ban on gays in the military. Whether she does or not is irrelevant. The military needs to know what she believes so she can be honestly gauged.

The members of our military are fighting and dying so we can be free. They expect our gratitude, and yes, they are entitled to it. We can and should question what our military is doing, but we have to know what we are talking about.

We cannot put Abu Gharaib, Haditha and Guantanamo Bay on the same level as what our enemies are doing. We cannot accuse our troops of going door to door and raping and murdering innocent civilians. We cannot accuse our troops of torturing people when those who use the word torture really mean waterboarding. Waterboarding has only been done to three people, one of them Khalid Sheik Mohammed. It is not now considered torture.

Those who continue to use the left side of their mouths to criticize the military while using the right side to praise it are not fooling the troops. Does anybody think battle tested defenders who captured Saddam Hussein are not bright enough to cut through liberal presidential doublespeak?

Frustration with the war allowed the Pelosiraptor to take over the House. Yet President Bush did something that the Pelosiraptor would not do. He listened. He installed General David Petraeus, one of the brightest men to ever wear the uniform. A legitimate argument can be made over whether or not the President took too long to make the change. What cannot be disputed is he made the change, and the soldiers are pleased with the current direction of events.

Actually it can be disputed, but by those who let emotions trump facts.

For those who truly want to earn the votes and respect of the troops, stop patronizing them. Let them tell you what they need, and how they feel, and then decide if what they are saying is reasonable. The troops know what they are talking about. They have been there, and are still there. They are not concerned with short term presidential elections. They are concerned with long term American survival, and they have been fabulous about this since 1776.

I do not know everything about the military…far from it. I also do not know how to figure out my satellite dish setup. I ask people who do know, and have been much better off when listening to those wiser than me. Just ask my auto mechanic what happens when I fail to heed his wisdom.

May God Bless the troops. I wish you a peaceful Veteran’s Day. I honor your missions, and badly want you to succeed.

I would shake every one of your hands if I could, and if you disagree with me, you bet you will have my attentive ear. I will still shake your hand.

May God Bless every American that has ever worn the uniform.

Again for all of you…thank you very much, and a hero’s welcome home.

eric

37 Responses to “Those who praise the troops need to listen to them”

  1. Annie says:

    Thank you for your blog. More and more Americans are doing what you suggest. We need to stand together as Americans and do our part in this war we find ourselves in and until we do that we are not supporting our great Military…no matter how much we run our mouths. Oh that we were the nation all of the same mind that we were in WWII….Blogs like yours do help to cause people to stand up and be counted. Thanks again. And GOD guide us all, especially our troops.

  2. micky2 says:

    Black Tygrrrr wrote;

    “My prediction is that the left, especially those running for President, will fail to simply let the solemn day go without running their opinionated mouths. Consider this column a pre-emptive strike.”

    Its sad when on this day that we have been almost programmed to expect and almost be able to bet money that some idiot is going to say something stupid and screw it up for someone or everyone. And more than likely it will be one of our own, whats worse is that it will probably be an elected official.

    In our personal lives we sometimes equate the absolute love of our life with someone who would give their life for us. And we feel sorry for ourselves if we never meet that person.
    When in reality there are thousands of totall strangers who have done just that for you.

  3. Heya, Eric. Caught your comment over at my site. I’m up for a link exchange. Got ya added to my blogroll.

    Great post. Sooner or later, one of the Dems will say something really nasty about the troops. It is inevitable.

  4. infidel308 says:

    Eric-
    Thanks for the kind words to all who have ever worn a uniform. My next tour will be Afghanistan, although I wanted Iraq so I could see some friends again. It makes me proud to serve with such a fine group of Americans, and just as glad to have people like you supporting us. It will probably not be until after retirement, but hopefully someday there will be peace in the Middle East and Israel. And I can say I was part of it, just a small part, like my father in WW2 and gramps in WW1. Sometime in the far future ( I hope ) I will be buried with the U.S. flag on my coffin. Same flag from my fathers funeral, and grandpa’s.
    On a lighter note: If you ever swam as a child with an older brother, you HAVE been waterboarded. So I am not sure what the big deal is.

  5. William says:

    Eric, I agree, as good Americans we MUST support our troops. We must at least give these brave men the respect they deserve by listening to what they say. President Bush has acknowledged this -“I have always said, that I will listen to the requests of our commanders…”

    President Bush is right and I agree. Don’t you?

    General John Batiste, Commander of the Army’s First Infantry Division – “the Big Red One” -led our troops in the Iraq invasion that toppled Saddam Hussein that took control of Baghdad. A veteran of 4 wars and 31 years in the military, he deserves our respect.

    General John Batiste said: “Mr. President, you did not listen. You continue to pursue a failed strategy that is breaking our great Army and Marine Corps…. Mr. President, you placed our nation in peril.”

    General Batiste’s superior in Iraq was General Ricardo Sanchez, commander of coalition forces in Iraq during the invasion. General Sanchez, a 33 year military veteran deserves our respect.

    General Sanchez said: “There has been a glaring, unfortunate display of incompetent strategic leadership within our national leaders… There is no question America is living a nightmare with no end in sight…” General Sanchez said that our leaders “lust for power” and that they would have “faced court martials for dereliction of duty had they been in the military.”

    Four Star General Anthony Zinni, a former CENTCOM Commander, 35 year veteran and diplomat. He has earned your respect so you should listen to what he has said about Iraq: “There has been poor strategic thinking in this. There has been poor operational planning and execution … it’s been a failure.”

    Army General Paul Eaton, Iraq war commander says US military policy in Iraq has been marked by “successive policy failures.” and “distortion of intelligence.” General Eaton wrote an open letter to President Bush: “You asserted that … you listen to your commanders on the ground. Respectfully, as your former commander on the ground, your administration did not listen to our best advice. In fact, a number of my fellow Generals were forced out of their jobs, because they did not tell you what you wanted to hear — most notably General Eric Shinseki.”

    Lt. General Gregory Newbold, Retired director of operations at the Pentagon’s military joint staff said: “I was a witness and therefore a party to the actions that led us to the invasion of Iraq–an unnecessary war. Inside the military family, I made no secret of my view that the zealots’ rationale for war made no sense. …What we are living with now is the consequences of successive policy failures.”

    General William E. Odom, U.S. Army, former Director of the National Intelligence Agency, said: “His strategy is failing and cannot be rescued… The war could never have served American interests. But it has served Iran’s interest by revenging Saddam Hussein’s invasion of Iran in the 1980s and enhancing Iran’s influence within Iraq. It has also served al Qaeda’s interests, providing a much better training ground than did Afghanistan, allowing it to build its ranks far above the levels and competence that otherwise would have been possible. We cannot ‘win’ a war that serves our enemies interests and not our own. Thus continuing to pursue the illusion of victory in Iraq makes no sense. We can now see that it never did.”

    Other high ranking military contributing similar opinions include:
    Army General John Abizaid – CENTCOM Commander
    Marine Commandant General Mike Hagee
    Army Chief of Staff General Shinseki
    Army Maj. General Charles Swannack
    Supreme Allied Commander Gen. Wesley Clark
    —–

    AND

    Guess which Republican candidate gets more support from active duty military and their families than all other GOP candidates combined?

    Answer: Ron Paul – the only GOP candidate calling for immediate withdrawl.

    YES ERIC, WE SHOULD LISTEN TO OUR MILITARY!

  6. Jersey McJones says:

    Here’s a poll of soldiers from February of last year: http://zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1075

    Here’s a poll of soldiers from last winter: http://www.citizen-soldier.org/losefaith.html

    I notice there are no more recent polls on this subject. I guess the administration and the military doesn’t need any more bad news. As it is, enlistment is down across the board, with the understandable exception of reenlistment, which always rises in a time of war as young men feel duty bound to their comrades in arms. The military takes advantage of that and probably allows for a lot more reenlistment than it should. The price of this and stop-gap extended tours will be huge numbers of mentally ill veterans in the end.

    The nice thing about these polls is that we get a more honest opinion from the troops than if you just walk up and ask them. Soldiers are usually reluctant to speak ill of their mission and command. I remember when this stupid, evil war in Iraq was gearing up. I was working with a large container line and thus a lot of Navy guys. I asked a Lieutenant what he thought of the coming war and he told me, “I do have an opinion, but I can’t share it with you. It’s against code.” Just the same, I got the feeling that he thought the war was a huge mistake. He’s a smart young man. On the other hand, there was a Commander who quite openly endorsed the war. Nice guy, but not quite the brain of that Lieutenant. Enlisted men and women, however, often come from the working class and hold opinions that reflect that socioeconomic sector. Also, there is a perfectly understandable cognitive dissonance that disallows criticism of their ostensible cause in order to mainatin morale. With that understood, it makes those above polls all the more remarkable, though.

    I support the troops as much as I support anyone else. I wish them well. I wish the the American public actually paid for the soldiers directly rather than by borrowing and killing the dollar, drew troops from broader demographics, and engaged the nation much, much more. Only about 1% of the population is really “at war,” and that’s kinda sad. I wish they could all come home. I hope one day they are able to reconcile the realities of this misbegotten war. It won’t be easy, as Vietnam reminds us. 1/4 of all homeless people are vets, and many of them from Nam. I have a funny feeling wel’ll be seeing that number rise. Let’s see how much you conservatives really “support the troops” once they’re on the streets. Something tells me you’ll be calling for more jails and less social programs for them, adding “Get a job!” to add insult to injury.

    JMJ

  7. Thanks for stopping by my blog, Eric! 🙂

  8. David M says:

    The Thunder Run has linked to this post in the – Web Reconnaissance for 11/13/2007 A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day…so check back often.

  9. micky2 says:

    In response to William I can only say one thing.
    Bush did and is listening to the troops and will continue to.
    It doesnt mean that he has to base his decisions alone on what they say.
    His intelligence sources go beyond a few generals.
    But there is one general who gets the majority of his intel from other generals and that would be Betraeus. Batraeus compiled his report from leaders in the field and everywhere else, and it washed mostly positive.
    I understand that either side can cherry pick their info to make their point.
    But in the end it all boils down to common sense.

    We had to go in.
    And we cant leave till its right.

    Jersey, ya gotta come up with some info thats a little more current.
    What do you expect when you grab your info from a website that thinks the war is about oil.
    Citizen soldier ? LOL
    At least be clear enough to mention the moonbat agenda this website has.
    Check it out.
    ———————————————————————————————————————
    “”WITHDRAWAL WON’T HAPPEN
    The US plans permanent military bases in Iraq,
    confirming to many that it really was all about oil “”

    by Patrick Seale, Saturday June 9, 2007, The Guardian

    “Almost unnoticed, the war in Iraq entered a new phase last week. Laconic statements from the White House and the Pentagon confirmed what had long been suspected – the US is planning a long-term military presence in Iraq. This is a geopolitical development of the first importance. In spite of current difficulties – May was the most lethal month for American soldiers since 2004, with 119 killed – the United States firmly intends to maintain control of Iraq and its vast oil reserves. Iraq’s neighbours, and energy-hungry states and oil companies, will take note. ”
    ———————————————————————————————————————
    They act as if this is big news or something.
    We are establishing a precense in the middle east, really ? DUH.
    And then we have to be practacle in our thinking gentlemen.
    It would of been a hell of a lot easier and WAY cheaper to just buy the oil.

    Really ! Come on. A soldier website playing the oil card ! Whats next ?

  10. Jersey McJones says:

    You didn’t really address any of our points, Micky.

    Can I ask you? Are you happy that we’re at war? Does this somehow please you?

    JMJ

  11. micky2 says:

    Been through this. Its a dead horse.
    I’m not gonna argue the same thing with the same person all over again.
    yes, I am happy we are at war, it pleases me.
    Enough address ?

    This was Williams point;
    YES ERIC, WE SHOULD LISTEN TO OUR MILITARY!

    I addressed it.

    You drew your points from weak sources, I addressed it.
    But of course if I remember correctly you think we should treat the problem like “unruly children”.
    Even CNN did a special on the progressin Iraq and how things are shaping up. Even Maliki is pleased.
    So you and your lib buddies can grumble and say whatever you want.
    The war will go on till its settlted enough for us to bail. And we will most definatly leave a crew behind. I knew this in the beggining.
    Accept it and work with it and we will be out that much sooner, instead of being subjected to the votes and whims of the most backasswards congress in the history of this country.

    Remember this ? Its about a year old too.

    The first battalion of the new Iraqi Army has graduated and is on active duty.
    … Over 60,000 Iraqis now provide security to their fellow citizens.
    … Nearly all of Iraq’s 400 courts are functioning.
    … The Iraqi judiciary is fully independent.
    .. On Monday, October 6, power generation hit 4,518 megawatts, exceeding the prewar average.
    … All 22 universities and 43 technical institutes and colleges are open, as are nearly all primary and secondary schools.
    … By October 1, Coalition forces had rehab-ed over 1,500 schools – 500 more than scheduled.
    … Teachers earn from 12 to 25 times their former salaries.
    … All 240 hospitals and more than 1200 clinics are open.
    … Doctor’s salaries are at least eight times what they were under Saddam.
    … Pharmaceutical distribution has gone from essentially nothing to 700 tons in May to a current total of 12,000 tons.
    … The Coalition has helped administer over 22 million vaccination doses to Iraq’s children.
    … A Coalition program has cleared over 14,000 kilometers of Iraq’s 27,000 kilometers of weed-choked canals which now irrigate tens of thousands of farms. This project has created jobs for more than 100,000 Iraqi men and women.
    … We have restored over three-quarters of prewar telephone services and over two-thirds of the potable water production.
    … There are 4,900 full-service telephone connections. We expect 50,000 by year-end.
    … The wheels of commerce are turning. From bicycles to satellite dishes to cars and trucks, businesses are coming to life in all major cities and towns.
    … 95 percent of all prewar bank customers have service and first-time customers are opening accounts daily.
    … Iraqi banks are making loans to finance businesses.
    … The central bank is fully independent.
    … Iraq has one of the world’s most growth-oriented investment and banking laws.
    … Iraq has a single, unified currency for the first time in 15 years.
    … Satellite TV dishes are legal.
    … Foreign journalists aren’t on 10-day visas paying mandatory and extortionate fees to the Ministry of Information for minders and other government spies.
    … There is no Ministry of Information.
    … There are more than 170 newspapers.
    … You can buy satellite dishes on what seems like every street corner.
    … Foreign journalists (and everyone else) are free to come and go.
    … A nation that had not one single element — legislative, judicial or executive — of a representative government now does.
    … In Baghdad alone residents have selected 88 advisory councils. Baghdad’s first democratic transfer of power in 35 years happened when the city council elected its new chairman.
    … Today in Iraq chambers of commerce, business, school and professional organizations are electing their leaders all over the country.
    … 25 ministers, selected by the most representative governing body in Iraq’s history, run the day-to-day business of government.
    … The Iraqi government regularly participates in international events. Since July the Iraqi government has been represented in over two dozen international meetings, including those of the UN General Assembly, the Arab League, the World Bank and IMF and, today, the Islamic Conference Summit. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs today announced that it is reopening over 30 Iraqi embassies around the world.
    … Shiva religious festivals that were all but banned, aren’t anymore.
    … For the first time in 35 years, in Karbala thousands of Shiites celebrate the pilgrimage of the 12th Imam.
    … The Coalition has completed over 13,000 reconstruction projects, large and small, as part of a strategic plan for the reconstruction of Iraq.
    … Uday and Queasy are dead – and no longer feeding innocent Iraqis to the zoo lions, raping the young daughters of local leaders to force cooperation, torturing Iraq’s soccer players for losing games, or murdering critics.
    … Children aren’t imprisoned or murdered when their parents disagree with the government.
    … Political opponents aren’t imprisoned, tortured, executed, maimed, or forced to watch their families die for disagreeing with Saddam.
    … Millions of long-suffering Iraqis no longer live in perpetual terror.
    … Saudis will hold municipal elections.
    … Qatar is reforming education to give more choices to parents.
    … Jordan is accelerating market economic reforms.
    … The Nobel Peace Prize was awarded for the first time to an Iranian
    — A Muslim woman who speaks out with courage for human rights, for democracy and for peace.
    .. Saddam is gone.
    … Iraq is free.
    ….Terrorists are being drawn to an arena in which our military can kill or capture them
    Sovereignty is restored to Iraq”

    11-12-07 Maliki said that the insurgency is almost non existent.

    You guys need to get up to date, and stopping repeating old complaints and points.
    The broken record if you havnt noticed by now doesnt and hasnt worked.

    heres some facts from the horses mouth, not dissenting websites that reflect a small part of our community.

    Don’t miss the fact that the military votes Republican. Yes, the people whose butts are on the line in Iraq because of the policies of the Bush administration support the Bush administration!!! I have to say that putting your vote on the side of the guys who want you to carry a rifle into battle is truly putting your money where your mouth is…the troops believe in the Iraq situation, they believe it is part of the War on Terror and they believe that they are fighting for and protecting their country. Here is a definitive comment on the subject:

    This is why the military is made up mostly Republicans and Independents. The only thing Dems will fight for is their corner of the street to protest the war in Iraq.

    VOTE IN 2004 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION:
    Bush: 73%
    Kerry: 18%

    POLITICAL MAKE UP
    Republicans: 59%
    Independents: 20%
    Democrat: 13%

  12. Jersey McJones says:

    First of all, this is America, not Pakistan. Our military is subjegate to our citizenry. So no, we should not listen too much to our soldiers. Most are of them are not terribly well educated anyway. Just the same, if we are going to listen to them, what we are hearing is that they are losing faith in this insipid, evil war. You can point out all the “good news” you want, but Iraq reamins a disaster area and onl; a loony would think otherwise. Just like every single other conservative endeavor ever, the imperial invasion and occupation of Iraq is a failure.

    JMJ

  13. micky2 says:

    Thats just your opinion Jersey, it doesnt prove anything other than your sentiment.

    I make my decisions on facts, not emotion.

    As fare as our soldiers go, I was right. Some jerk was going to come along and ruin it.
    I predicted this yesterday;

    “Its sad when on this day that we have been almost programmed to expect and almost be able to bet money that some idiot is going to say something stupid and screw it up for someone or everyone. And more than likely it will be one of our own, whats worse is that it will probably be an elected official.”

    Of course if our boys saw everything your way they would be genious’s , right ?
    You already proed yourself on that subject when we debated the intelect of majorities.
    You called it “mob mentallity”
    But when that “mob” is that useless clump of crap you call congress their O.K. right ?

    Find a better arguement already, go back in the archives, I handed you your butt on this one.

    Our boys are plenty educated, especially the men that Willia mentioned, but it doesnt mean that we have to perform their recomendartions because we listen to them

  14. micky2 says:

    I’m sorry, but this one has been eating away at me, and I have to point out the mindset and insanity that prevails the far left.
    The statement below portrays the obvious contempt for the administration no matter how good things get.

    JMJ said;
    “You can point out all the “good news” you want, but Iraq reamins a disaster area and onl; a loony would think otherwise.’

    It clearly says that No matter how much good news there is, it wont change anything.
    Really ? No matter how good the news ? Or how much of it ?
    ” Only a loon would think so ” No matter how much good news there is”
    So, its like this folks. You have to be crazy if you are willing to acknowledge progress and good news.
    Put your fingers in your ears and go ” La La la La La ”
    Its like a little infant that wont eat his peas ! He just sits there with his trap shut , shakes his head and closes his eyes, hoping the peas will go away.

    You wont hear;
    ” Well, maybe its turning out better than we thought ‘
    ” You gotta give them some credit”
    “Things are better than they were before” (any specific time)
    ” Our men are succeeding ”

    What you hear is what jersey said; “Misbegotten” ” Complete and utter failure” ” Imperial invasion and occupation”

    And now that the left finds some soldiers that are dissenting they are admirable and smart for doing it.
    But the rest as Jersey says are ” not that educated ”

    This ladies and gentlemen is the epitomy of closed and selective minds, that lack imagination.
    “Fair weather friends” as they are known.
    When you suppoort my sentiments, you’re a genious.
    If not , you’re an idiot.

  15. Jersey McJones says:

    Micky, I’ve heard plenty of “good news” out of Iraq. That’s great. We rescued the Shi-a. That’s great. We sorta/kinda rescued the Kurds. Great too. We completely destabilized an already extremely destabilized region. Not great.

    Most of our projects and goals have not been met. The majority, those less armed, Shi-a are attacking the minority, heavily armed, Sunnis, and vice versa (it’s a chicken and egg thing…). Turkey is threatening war with the Kurds. Iran and the Saudis are apparently waging some kind of proxy war. And you are somehow optimistic about this, huh?

    Good for you. It must be like being permanently high.

    JMJ

  16. micky2 says:

    JMJ said;
    ‘Micky, I’ve heard plenty of “good news” out of Iraq”

    So, I imagine that from now on you cant call it ” a complete and utter failure”?
    Make up your mind.

    As long as you keep changing your story and position, I’ll always have a good buzz.
    Like I said before, making you look bad is better than any dope I ever did.
    And please try to understand that I handed you you’re butt on this debate once before.
    Go back into blacktygrrrrs archives if you want to see this arguement all over again.

    I am sure am glad libs arent doing the fighting. Nothing would get done. All you guys do is run around around and find stuff to bitch about.
    You want this war over as soon as possible ?
    Get your arse over here and lend a hand !

    Because its not going to be over untill its over ! No matter how much you guys kick and scream. It hasnt worked yet, but you keep crying.

    Its like a fireman going into a well to rescue a kid and they both get stuck.
    And all you jerks can do is stand around and bitch about why it happened. And what a screwed up job the firemen are doing.
    Unbelievable…
    WE ARE NOT GOING ANYWHERE ! Face it. Even the left knows this, cant you see that ?
    It doesnt matter who gets elected, they know the stakes. But beteween now and the election , Hillary, Obama, Edwards will tell you guys anything you want to hear.
    If one of these guys gets into office I believe they will let you guys down bigtime !
    We cant leave Iraq ! Ever ! , that was the plan ! get serious !

  17. micky2 says:

    In addition.
    Contrary to the statements that our troops are” not terribly well educated anyway. ”

    Thats not what I would call a very supportive statement.
    Our troops today are the most educated and knowledgable we have ever had in history.
    First of all being that they volunteered as many of them left behind jobs that require very educated minds.

    http://www.nysun.com/article/42725

    .” As Tim Kane of the Heritage Foundation has shown in his own study, “Who are the recruits?” 90% of current recruits had at least a high school degree, and 92% of the officers had at least a college degree.”

    yes, even the foot soldiers — is the most educated in history and better educated than the American public on average. Annually, thousands of top honor students take the military entrance exams. The recruitment test, which all inductees must pass, includes questions that many Ph.D.s would miss, and I would gladly hold a contest pitting any 10 American Army soldiers, randomly selected, against any 10 public school teachers on a standardized test.

    If you were attempting to support your troops would you lie about their capabilities ?

    Face it lefties. We all know you think the soldiers are idiots for doing what they do.
    But you know damn well what would happen if you said that.
    First you would be proven wrong, as I have just done.
    And then you would be stoned at the town square. (with stones)

  18. greg says:

    So, Micky2, first of all I have an Army MP son, a staff sergeant about to get promoted again, who has done one tour of duty in Iraq and one tour of duty in Afghanistan. He was there the day the mess tent was hit by missiles in Mosul. He has seen his friends killed in front of him and was almost killed himself more than once. I support the troops 1000%. They are indeed the smartest, best-trained soldiers we have ever produced. No doubt in my mind about that.

    But that doesn’t mean their intelligence and training extends to the political civilian leadership of the military. And just because the soldiers are doing the best they can with the resources they are given, that doesn’t mean their mission is a worthy one. I support the troops but not the war.

    But here’s an idea. If things are so good in Iraq, why don’t you take all of your experience and culinary awards and open a restaurant in Iraq. I’m sure you’d make a killing.

  19. micky2 says:

    Greg.
    What you say has nothing to do with my respones to Jerseys assinine statements.
    Jersey was talking about the enlisted men and soldiers(you’re son). Not the civilian leadership.
    Quite honestly you should be throwing these pillows at him, not me.

    Greg said;
    “I support the troops but not the war”
    Hey son, I dont believe in what you’re doing, you shouldnt be doing that, but you’re doing a great job ?
    You are saying that he is risking his life for nothing ?
    Whoooowee, have another one Greg.
    You can come to my restaurant, it’ll be on the house ! ( all night)

    Greg wrote;
    “But here’s an idea. If things are so good in Iraq, why don’t you take all of your experience and culinary awards and open a restaurant in Iraq. I’m sure you’d make a killing.”

    That was brilliant. Greg , you’re about as funny and realistic as a submarine with screen doors.
    Dont go for stand-up, dont quit your day job. Just because your head comes to point doesnt mean you’re sharp.
    Your address is all beside the point, as usual. You conveniently always stray from the subject, searching for some morsel that will validate some point that has little to do with anything.
    You and Jersey are simply putting forth the sentiment and emotion again, which as always ” aint worth squat ” when you are trying to prove something.

    The simple fact is that we are where we are at, and you cant grow past it.
    And you cant deny that your illustrious leaders voted to go to Iraq for all the same reasons as anyone else.
    Would you like to leave Iraq right now ?
    You’re a Christian ordained minister right ? If we do pack up and leave as the lefturds want. Iraq will need a church before they need a restaurant, dont you agree ?

  20. greg says:

    “Hey son, I dont believe in what you’re doing, you shouldnt be doing that, but you’re doing a great job ? You are saying that he is risking his life for nothing ?”

    Yeah, unfortunately that’s pretty much the situation. Don’t get me wrong, it’s not totally for nothing but the gains are so outweighed by the losses in Iraq that it sometimes seem like it’s for nothing. And I am just talking about Iraq here. There, of course, is a place for the military and a strong national defense.

    Let’s stay with the retaurant analogy for a moment. An owner could embark upon a new restaurant with a disaster of a business plan. It’s in the wrong location, it is underfunded, whatever. The staff could all do a great job — the servers are fantastic, the bartenders, the kitchen, all of the staff are doing a great job but the restaurant fails anyway because the business plan sucked. That’s how I feel about the situation in Iraq.

    As for opening a restaurant in Iraq I got exactly the response I thought I would get. Yeah, it’s a silly not-very-funny joke to think of opening a restaurant in Iraq because even if things are better now than they were a year ago, they’re still pretty damn bad.

    Iraq already has places of worship, by the way.

  21. Jersey McJones says:

    “WE ARE NOT GOING ANYWHERE!”

    We shall see. Hopefully, if or when we do leave, it won’t be with our tail between our legs off the rooftop of our ridiculous embassy.

    JMJ

  22. micky2 says:

    Greg, Iraq already has restaurants also. Its a terrible almost sensless analogy.
    But if you must go that route, commerce is having a considerable rise in Iraq,
    New shops are popping up everywhere and violence everywhere is as low as its ever been.

    24 September 2007 (Azzaman) — The Ministry of Planning has approved projects worth $57.5 million. The projects were suggested by five ministries engaged in post-war reconstruction.

    ——————————————————————————–

    Contracting Training and Networking Day offered to Iraqi business community
    21 September 2007 (PortAl Iraq) — The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers (USACE) Gulf Region Division’s (GRD) Capacity Development Office (CDO) and the Joint Contracting Command (JCC) – Iraq/Afghanistan …

    ——————————————————————————–

    Kurdistan capital sets example for Iraq

    Erbil, 21 September 2007 (Associated Press) — For anyone who has spent time in Baghdad, the most startling thing about a visit to Kurdistan’s capital, Erbil, is that it resembles a city at peace, …

    Reconstruction & General Commerce
    Call for more international investors
    05 November 2007 (Herald News Daily) — Opportunities in Iraq have been customised to be more international investor friendly, a top official at the Gulf Iraq Expo (GIX) has said.

    ——————————————————————————–

    Trade Fair Showcases Iraq Investment Opportunities
    05 November 2007 (VOA) — Although the political outlook in northern Iraq has been clouded by tensions between Turkey and Kurdish militants based in border areas in Iraqi Kurdistan, such worries seem …

    ——————————————————————————–

    Baghdad International Airport business development opportunities expand with convention center, office suites
    05 November 2007 (Blacknathem News) — Business development opportunities will soon be expanded at the Baghdad International Airport complex.

    ——————————————————————————–

    ‘Mubarrid’ is participating in the exhibition of reconstructing Iraq
    05 November 2007 (Iraq Directory) — Mubarrid” Company for transport announced its participation in the Exhibition of Reconstructing Iraq to be held from 4 to 7 next November on the ground of the international …

    ——————————————————————————–

    Municipalities executes strategic plan
    Baghdad, 05 November 2007 (Al-Sabaah) — Planning Ministry revealed conducting new projects to improve basic services in Baghdad and provinces with a cost of $1M while Municipalities Ministry confirmed …

    ——————————————————————————–

    Iraqi Kurds taking care of business
    Erbil, Kurdistan Region, Iraq, 02 November 2007 (Toronto Star) — Annual trade show attracts firms from 20 countries as construction booms while war rages in south

    ——————————————————————————–

    UK Defence Secretary on first visit praises Kurdistan’s peace and development

    Erbil, 02 November 2007 (KRG) — Des Browne, the UK Secretary of State for Defence, today made his first visit to the Kurdistan Region in Iraq. Mr Browne had wide ranging discussions with Mr Masoud …

    ——————————————————————————–

    Iraq’s 18 provinces get $30 million each
    01 November 2007 (Azzaman) — Iraq’s 18 provinces will get $30 million each to help reduce rampant unemployment in the country, according to the Minister of Labor and Social Affairs.

    Reconstruction & General Commerce
    Call for more international investors
    05 November 2007 (Herald News Daily) — Opportunities in Iraq have been customised to be more international investor friendly, a top official at the Gulf Iraq Expo (GIX) has said.

    ——————————————————————————–

    Trade Fair Showcases Iraq Investment Opportunities
    05 November 2007 (VOA) — Although the political outlook in northern Iraq has been clouded by tensions between Turkey and Kurdish militants based in border areas in Iraqi Kurdistan, such worries seem …

    ——————————————————————————–

    Baghdad International Airport business development opportunities expand with convention center, office suites
    05 November 2007 (Blacknathem News) — Business development opportunities will soon be expanded at the Baghdad International Airport complex.

    ——————————————————————————–

    ‘Mubarrid’ is participating in the exhibition of reconstructing Iraq
    05 November 2007 (Iraq Directory) — Mubarrid” Company for transport announced its participation in the Exhibition of Reconstructing Iraq to be held from 4 to 7 next November on the ground of the international …

    ——————————————————————————–

    Municipalities executes strategic plan
    Baghdad, 05 November 2007 (Al-Sabaah) — Planning Ministry revealed conducting new projects to improve basic services in Baghdad and provinces with a cost of $1M while Municipalities Ministry confirmed …

    ——————————————————————————–

    Iraqi Kurds taking care of business
    Erbil, Kurdistan Region, Iraq, 02 November 2007 (Toronto Star) — Annual trade show attracts firms from 20 countries as construction booms while war rages in south

    ——————————————————————————–

    UK Defence Secretary on first visit praises Kurdistan’s peace and development

    Erbil, 02 November 2007 (KRG) — Des Browne, the UK Secretary of State for Defence, today made his first visit to the Kurdistan Region in Iraq. Mr Browne had wide ranging discussions with Mr Masoud …

    ——————————————————————————–

    Iraq’s 18 provinces get $30 million each
    01 November 2007 (Azzaman) — Iraq’s 18 provinces will get $30 million each to help reduce rampant unemployment in the country, according to the Minister of Labor and Social Affairs.

    As far as your son goes , I’m sorry. But if you cant believe in what he’s doing, and yet you say you suppoort it, you are a hypocrite. ” The gains are outweighed by the losses”?

    Its O.K. to participate in something you despise as long as you get yours Greg !
    If I can figure anything out in my life it would be the fact that we all do better at something when we believe in it.
    I suggest your boy get the hell out of Iraq for his own good.

  23. micky2 says:

    We will never leave Iraq Jersey. Of course thats just an opinion, but everything points in that direction.
    And actually I believe it was the plan all along from day 1.
    After 911 we needed to establish a precense in the middle east that had teeth.
    Saddams mistakes gave us a clear and justifiable path and reason to do so.
    The chemistry was perfect. Get rid of a credible threat and set up shop at the same time.
    I believe this is what we intended to do the whole time.
    Which is why the whole time we have been building an embassy the size of Harvard.
    Unfortunatly the general public could never stomach such a diabolical scheme so it was presented to us just as measure to rid us of a proven threat and unseat a murderous tyrant.
    Iraq will be the new watch tower in the middle east.
    Nations that support or host terrorism will take note of our precense as being closer and more effective should anyone “get out of line ”
    Going after hearts and minds is what the public likes to hear. We are there to set up defenses, plain and simple.
    If all I suspect is true, its pure genious.

  24. Jersey McJones says:

    I do think that we intended to establish a permanent base in Iraq, so to speak, but whetehr or not we can achieve that is another matter, as is whetehr or not it was a good idea. As of now, it looks like about the most stupid thing America have ever done. We are going to seriously regret this. Imperial hubris rarely works out well. Our Founding Fathers would be appalled.

    JMJ

  25. micky2 says:

    The founding fathers were on a different planet. And this is a different animal that they never imagined.
    The founding fathers would of cleaned someones clock.
    It may look stupid now. Only because so many are clueless.

    Japan, Germany, and other European countries worked out just fine. And co-operate very well today.
    All these countries are now the finacial powerhouses of our times, it has actually worked out very well.

  26. Jersey McJones says:

    Japan and Germany were already Western, or Westernized, industrial powers before the war, Micky.

    Can I ask you this: If the total price tag for this stupid war reaches 1.5 trillion, or God forbid 2.5 trillion, will it still be have been worth it to you?

    JMJ

  27. micky2 says:

    JMJ wrote;
    “Japan and Germany were already Western, or Westernized, industrial powers before the war, Micky.”

    Not before WW2 jersey.

    JMJ said;
    “Can I ask you this: If the total price tag for this stupid war reaches 1.5 trillion, or God forbid 2.5 trillion, will it still be have been worth it to you?”

    YUP !

  28. micky2 says:

    Besides that , the subject at hand is the reconstruction of Iraq. Which is progressing more now than ever. As I have shown documented proof of repeatedly.
    The other subject and point I was making was that every country we have shredded has come back to a better and more fruitful function. PERIOD.
    We saved France and Britains ass. And rebuilt their countries also. Along with liberating East germany. SAnd numerous other oppressed peoples.
    After WW2 reconstruction of Japan has proven to also be very profitable on all fronts.
    Iraq will not be any different.
    But of course the left would like to ignore history. Non of this happened over night

  29. Jersey McJones says:

    Micky, if you think that Japan and Germany were not developed Western states prior to WWII, then you are historically ILLITERATE.

    JMJ

  30. micky2 says:

    Please read to my reference.
    Although I made the mistake of saying “before the war’ I clearly speak of rebuilding after the war. That is really what the subject concerning Iraq was all about in the first place.
    Sorry if I mislead you. But then again, you are a liberal.
    At no time other than my mind fart did I say that Japan or Germany were not ecnomically viable.
    As far as Iraq goes, we aint goin nowhere.
    Everyone is now finally getting hip to this. You have , and so have I.
    The problem will be that no matter what we do it will take time to put infrastucture and commerce back together as it did with France, Germany , England, and Japan.
    And during the whole time the lefturds will be searching for mistakes and things to bitch about the whole time. This is of course an opinion . But based on their track record I would gaurantee it.

  31. Jersey McJones says:

    Japan and Germany were developed Western states prior to WWII. Iraq, like Vietnam, is another story. Comparing Iraq, or Vietnam, with Europe and Japan is like comparing Waco to New York – almost exactly. 😉

    JMJ

  32. micky2 says:

    You didnt read a thing I wrote, did you ?

    R E C O N S T R U C T I ON , Get it ?
    We’ve done it before and we’re doing it again, thankyou.

    Prior economies are not the issue Sherlock. Why , for the third time, are you stuttering ?

  33. greg says:

    The issue is not whether Germany and Japan were industrialized or not prior to WW2. The difference between the reconstruction of Germany and Japan then versus the reconstruction of Iraq now is that the Iraqis are engaged in fighting a civil war amongst themselves, Shiites versus Sunnis versus Kurds. That wasn’t the case with Japan, Germany, the UK or France.

    But the history of reconstruction and world politics after WW2 is instructive but for a different reason. Germany and Japan were demonized just like Iraq under Hussein and Iran is today. The “Krauts” and the “Japs” were labeled the terrorists of their day. They were responsible for far more American deaths than the recent wave of terror and their example shows that there is no reason why the same kind of success and transformation couldn’t happen today.

  34. micky2 says:

    Greg wrote;
    “their example shows that there is no reason why the same kind of success and transformation couldn’t happen today.”

    Gosh Greg, thankyou. 🙂
    I hope jersey gets it.

  35. greg says:

    Actually I’m not sure you got it. What I was saying was that the demonization of Iran and terrorism in general may very well change over time, so the manner in which you approach Iran and other “axis of evil” states should be judged in that light. Look at how the conservatives are suddenly all ga-ga over Sarkozy. All of sudden it’s okay to be French again. Or look at the pictures of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam Hussein. Back then, we supported Saddam and all of a sudden he became evil.

  36. micky2 says:

    Yea well, the point remains the same. We will put iraq back together. And as of the surge its only gotten better. I was simply reflecting on your last sentence as making sense.
    Plus. it would give your son a little more optimism about his purpose in Iraq.

    Things are actually getting alot better in Iraq. But of course god forbid the media air any good news.
    Even NBC has done positive stories on the progress in the last 2 days. When NBC does a good story on Iraq you bet there are at least a 100 others not being told

    “There’s an old expression about war: “Victory has many fathers, while defeat is an orphan.” But in the case of Iraq, it seems the other way around. We’ve blamed many for the ordeal of the last four years, but it is the American victory in Anbar province that now seems without parents.

    Over the last few months, the U.S. military forced Sunni insurgents in Anbar to quit fighting. This enemy, in the heart of the so-called Sunni Triangle, had been responsible for most American casualties in the war and was the main cause of unrest in Iraq. Even more unexpectedly, some of the defeated tribes then joined in an alliance of convenience with their American victors to chase al-Qaida from Iraq’s major cities.
    As President Bush recently told U.S. troops about Anbar province: “It was once written off as lost. It is now one of the safest places in Iraq.”

    But that dramatic turnabout in Iraq is rarely reported on. We know as much about O.J.’s escapades in Vegas as we do about the Anbar awakening or the flight of al-Qaida from Baghdad. When we occasionally do hear about Iraq, it is just as likely through a Hollywood movie — “In the Valley of Elah,” “Redacted,” “Lions for Lambs” — preaching to us how the U.S. was mostly incompetent or amoral in fighting a hopeless war.

    The Abu Ghraib prison scandal of 2004 warranted 32 consecutive days on The New York Times’ front page. Congressional appeals for timetables and scheduled withdrawals, amid cries of “fiasco” and “quagmire,” were regularly reported this summer. Now, though, there is largely silence in newspaper headlines about the growing peace in Anbar province.

    Why this abrupt amnesia about Iraq, given a radical drop in American casualties and entire cities now largely free from serial violence?

    Many anti-war critics are so invested in the notion of the Iraq war as the “worst” something or other in U.S. history that they cannot accept the radical turnaround after over four years of war.

    Other opponents have simply changed their argument from “Iraq is lost” to “Even if we do win, it will not have been worth the cost.” Either way, good news from the front seems to translate into no news.

    Even some supporters of the war are leery and hesitant to tout American success. Maybe they remember past optimism over successful elections and the euphoria over the purple fingers — all occurring prior to the Shiite/Sunni sectarian bloodletting of 2006.

    New uncertainties elsewhere also overshadow Iraq — the falling dollar, martial law in Pakistan, skyrocketing oil prices, and fear of a soon-to-be nuclear Iran. Amid all that chaos, Iraq may no longer be our chief worry. continued… ”

    http://www.townhall.com/columnists/column.aspx?UrlTitle=when_good_news_is_no_news&ns=VictorDavisHanson&dt=11/15/2007&page=2

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