Iowa is irrelevant. New Hampshire is useless. New York City is what matters, since that is where the giant crater exists along with the memories of 3000 murdered new Yorkers.
I am working out of my firm’s Wall Street office this week, and there is a television and a computer here in the break room, allowing me to watch the Fox news republican debate while blogging about it.
Just around the block is the New York Stock Exchange, where people can no longer go on the trading floor as guests. Those days are long gone.
I just got back from Ground Zero several minutes ago, or 15 minutes before the debate began. It is one thing to read about it. it is another thing to be there. I was walking with my friend, who was right there when it happened in 2001. He said a prayer to God that he would live, and he did.
I well up with rage every time I see the memorial. I will never forget.
The republican debate is not about gay marriage, stem cell research, African American vegeterianism, or any other narrow issue that affects a select few disproportionately.
Let the democrats debate nonsense.
The republicans need to spend time eplaining how they are going to kill every animal that is even remotely connected to the barbarians that took down the towers.
We have made significant progress, but there is more to do.
With that, I bring the 2008 republican debate from South Carolina.
While we are watching television, Al Queda is plotting more murders.
Here is the recap Between Rudy Giuliani, John McCain, Mitt Romney, Fred thompson, Mike Huckabee, and another fellow I will mention when necessary.
Brit hume, Carl Cameron, Wendell Goler, and Chris Wallace were the moderators. The first question dealt with whether we were in a recession, and what should be done.
Romney reiterated his record. At the Federal level, he mentioned the housing crisis, lower taxes, gas prices, and research and development in science and technology. he got in a jab at McCain by saying that the Senator stated jobs in Michigan were gone forever, which Romney disagreed.
McCain stuck to his guns, saying some jobs were gone forever. He mentioned going to community colleges and designing new training programs. He does not believe we are headed into a recession.
When asked about short term government fixes with regards to a slowdown, and would he be ok with adding to the deficit, he mentioned cutting spending, and using Detroit to develop technologies to reduce foreign oil dependency. He said he would make the authors of earmarks famous.
Huckabee was asked about his short terms stimulus package. He spoke of four problems, that being fuel prices, subprime mortgages, health care and education costs. he mentioned the fair tax.
Giuliani was asked about his wanting to cut taxes despite others saying that tax cuts do not pay for themselves. Giuliani cited Ronald Reagan, President Bush, JFK, and the Club For Growth. We have the second highest corporate tax rate in the world. He spoke of cutting federal agencies, and regulatory reform. overtaxing, spending, regulating and suing must be stopped.
McCain agreed, but stated that we have to cut spending as well. He wants to make the bush tax cuts permanent.
When asked about a government program to stimulate the economy, Ron Paul said that recession is predictable. He stated that the housing market is in a depression, and that we had artificially low interest rates are a mistake by causing a bubble and then a bust.
Thompson stated that Rudy’s tax plan was one he proposed a couple months ago, and that the tax cuts always bring in more revenue than the experts say. The entire housing market is hurting, not just subprime. Credit is getting tighter, and we have two handed economists because nobody knows. We have to count on the Fed, possibly speed up depreciation schedules. We have to consider a low income stimulus like in 2001, but a rebate would not work because the poor do not pay taxes.
Huckabee was asked what part of the Reagan coalition was gone, based on comments by Ed Rollins. He disputed that being said, and started talking about abortion and gay marriage, in addition to the Second Amendment. He stated that that was a part of the Reagan Coalition.
McCain stated that republicans have drifted from Reagan, especially since 1994. He mentioned the bridge to nowhere, and then mentioned Teddy Roosevelt and climate change.
Romney covered abortion services in his Massachussetts plan for health care. He stated that was a court order. He stated that Reagan’s principles are still valid today, and his optimism was vital. We need a strong military, strong families, and a strong economy. our economy is still the envy of the world.
Thompson went after Huckabee. He would be a social conservative but economic liberal. he mentioned gitmo, and the NEA endorsement. He mentioned huckabee wanting to ban smoking, which violates Federalism. It was a sharp attack, and the crowd roared.
Huckabee stated he is under attack because he is the target. He mentioned thst Reagan raised taxes, which is true, but not an excuse for being a tax raiser.
Giuliani was asked why he was the complete conservative. He mentioned peace through strength, and lower taxes specifically to empower people. He supports a strong national defense. We must devolve power to the people. Disagreements about social issues should not trump being competitive in 50 states, including states we do not even try to win any more. We need a broad outreach.
Ron Paul was asked about the 9/11 truthers, and whether we were responsible 9/11. He said he disagreed with them, but would not ask them to stop. he is now officially Rupaul for good. He stated we are no longer fiscal conservatives. We are big government people. We are entitlement people. We have undermined the Fourth Amendment. he has never voted to spend a penny of the social security fund.
Huckabee was asked by our passive response to Iran with regards to not shooting our ships this week. He stated they would “face the gates of hell,” if they tried to shoot, but that he trusted the current president’s decision not to attack. Brit hume delved further, but Huckabee stood his ground and said he trusted the generals.
Thompson agreed with Huckabee on this one, and that one more step and they would have “been introduced to those virgins that they were looking forward to seeing.” the crowd roared. Thompson brought up the british military hostage crisis, and said that if Iran crosses the line, they will be destroyed. He also offered some red meat to the crowd by pointing out that “You can tell that the news coming out of Iraq is good, because you read so little about it in te New York Times.”
Giuliani quickly rejected the NIE report stating that iran was benign. He mentioned that iran was collapsing economically, and that we should push them further.
McCain was asked what he would do if he were the captain of the ship, and he refused to armchair quarterback despite his naval experience. He agreed with Giuliani that people think Iran is seen as less of a threat due to the NIE report, which is a major mistake. Like the other candidates, he supported President Bush’s decision.
Rupaul urged caution, brought up the Gulf of Tonkin, and said we were ready to start World War III. Some in the administration are looking for the chance, and that there have been no attempts to avoid war.
Hume stated that the other candidates agreed with the passive response, so what as he upset about?
He responded that we were itching to bomb Iran.
(I hope he is right…we should)
Romney claimed that Rupaul should stop reading Armageddonijad’s press releases. The crowd roared, and the Rupaul supporters booed. He backed Bush, and stated that we need new sanctions against Iran.
McCain was asked about the surge working. McCain shined at this point. He ordered Hillary to retract her comments about General David petraeus, who should have been Time’s man of the Year. Only when we win can men come home with honor.
Giuliani was asked about how to prevent a Palestinian state from being a haven for terrorism. First they must recognize Israel’s right to exist. Then they must renounce terrorism. Then there must be a period of time. Giuliani politely disputed McCain’s claim that he was the only one to support the surge. Giuliani said neither of them have wavered. McCain stated that only he condemned the Rumsfeld strategy, which is a separate issue.
Rupaul stated that the USA gets in the way with regards to Israel and the Arabs, and that we should cease giving foreign aid to all nations. Israel can handle its own problems.
McCain got tough, saying that he did not want to trade with AL Queda, all they trade is burkas. He does not want tot ravel with them, they only want one way tickets.
Rupaul went ballistic, and i wa slooking for the German subtitles. He said mcCain wants us to be in Iraq for 100 years.
McCain replied that we have dramatically reduced casualties, and that we should support the troops, not condemn them. We have been in korea for 50 years, but nobody is dying. It is prescence, not casualties.
When asked about how we can side with Musharraf when 2/3 of the people want him gone, Thompson responded, “We can’t go against polls.” The crowd laughed. Leadership is not giverning by polling. He stated that calling for Musharraf to step down or cut off aid was irresponsible. He nailed it perfectly. We should pressure Musharraf to help with finding Osama bin laden, but not kid ourselves into trying to replace him without consequences. We also needed to secure the weapons.
Romney stated that foreign policy is now 3 dimensional chess, not checkers.While Romney mentioned various hot spots, he spoke coolly,while Thompson seemed much more passionate. Romney did mention getting Islamic countries away from Wahhabism, and helping their economies.
Huckabee, whena sked about accounting showing money was missing, reiterated that pushing Musharraf out was not the solution. Huckabee forgot that he was the one who advocated replacing him to begin with. Huckbee then admonished Rupaul over Israel, and promised to defend the Jewish state.
Rupaul stated that we undermine Israeli sovereignty, especially by arming Arab nations. We should treat Israel like adults, and that he defended the israeli decision to bomb the Osirak reactor in 1982. he stated israel is a stepchild of the USA.
Rudy ripped into Rupaul, and stated that the defense of Israel is smart for the USA. They are one of our staunchest reliable allies. As for Pakistan, we should work with musharraf.
Thompson stated that Huckabee mentioned our aid to the Pakistani military. Thompson said that is what the money is for, that we should support the Pakistani military.
While anybody ripping into Rupaul was on target, Thompson ripping into Huckabee was highly effective. The battle for social conservatives is between these two, and Thompson shredded him, without much of a counter response.
Romney was asked about change, and whether voters preferred experience. Romney replied, “nope.” he repeated that “Washington is broken,” and that nothing gets done. He then rattled off several examples, and stated that his career has been about change. “He would take Washington apart and bring it back together.”
When asked about Romney stating that McCain is Washington, McCain stated that “the answer was obvious.” McCain said his biggest change was to support the surge in iraq. He went after the democrats on Iraq, not Romney. He then mentioned going after Washington insiders such as Jack Abramoff, and the Defense Department’s bloated budget.
Huckabee was asked about higher taxes and more government while being a governor. He replied that “he got the job done.” H ethen ofered an incredibly rehearsed line about how what he raised was “hope.” he became Barack Huckabee Obama. He stated that Arkansas did not have falling bridges because he took care of them. People in Minnesota might be offended by that.
Thompson was asked how he differed from Huckabee. He pointed out that Huckabee signed the tax pledge only under pressure. Fred then focused on his own record, including passing five tax reductions. He mentioned his 100% pro-life voting record, but that does not differ from Huckabee.
Huckabee pointed out that Congress passed welfare reform, but Governors had to implement it.
Giuliani was asked about McCain’s comments that 9/11 is not foreign policy experience. he started out by saying that the change the democrats want is the change coming out of our pockets. Socialized medicine, and pulling out of Iraq were negative changes. Change itself can be good or bad. As for foreign policy, Giuliani was on a terrorism task force when Gerald Ford was President. He then reiterated throwing out arafat and snubbing the Saudi prince’s blood money. Senators are one out of 100, executives are leaders.
McCain praised Rudy as a person, but stated that it was McCain himself who has been a part of every foreign policy situation in the last 30 years.
Huckabee was asked about supporting an ad in the paper asking women to obey their husbands. Huckabee claimed that he was getting all the religious questions. it is because he keeps bringing it up. He got folksy and praised his strong wife. He then stated that his personal beliefs were not how he would govern. We should all submit to the lord. Marriage is 100/100, not 50/50.
Rupaul, with regards to electability was asked, “Do you have any?” The crowd loved Carl Cameron’s question. Rupaul repeated his beliefs, and cited Robert Taft. He did have a moment of sanity by stating that we doubled the NEA, which he wants to abolish. He stated that he is a Constitutionalist, and a true republican.
When asked about immigration, the crwod clapped before the question itself was asked.
McCain was asked about his failed plan. He replied that the plan failed because the American people have lost their trust in government. He reminded people that he is from a border state. He said he would not deport the wife of a serviceman missing in action. We would not reward law breakers, but we must be compassionate.
Romney was asked about his plan, and the moderator pointed out that McCain dodged the question. Romney stated that the difference was between the current 12 million illegal immigrants. He felt that a pathway to citizenship was special treatment. All 12 million should be given time to get their affiars in order, and then leave.
Thompson said we need to be a nation of “high fences and wide gates, and we get to decide when to ope it and close it.” We have to crack down on employers and sanctuary cities. He said you cannot deal with each immigrant individually. We could have enforcement by atttrition if we cut off funding to sanctuary cities. He then went after Huckabee’s immigration stance, which he portrayed as soft.
Rupaul was asked about his immigration stance. He focused on the economic issue, saying “if you subsidize something, you get more of it.” he stated the problem was “welfarism.” We should pull people from Iraq to guard the border.
Huckabee was asked about how to convince Hispanics that the GOP was not against them. Huckabee accurately replied that many Hispanics are against illegal immigration. He then offered lofty preacher rhetoric about light and darkness. We should assume everybody here is legal, so nobody feels shame.
Giuliani was asked about refusing to deport illegal immigrant whistleblowers. He correctly reported it would be absurd to deport them, and that his policies reduced crime more than any city in the history of America. He defended allowing children of illegal immigrants to go to school, and that letting 70,000 kids be criminal victims or perpetrators was wrong.
The night was a chess match, with different candidates going after each other for strategic reasons.
Rupaul is a nut. He did the worst, and nobody else had to be asked if they were viable. All five other candidates went after him, because the 90% of sane republicans like it. Romney actually backed off because he realized it was too easy, and could be seen as gratuitous.
Romney blended into the backgorund. nobody attacked him, because he is seen as falling apart. He did nothing wrong tonight, but did not distinguish himself.
Giuliani and McCain sparred because they are fighting for moderates. They were both so polite and respectful of each other, because they genuinely do respect and like each other, and wish they were not both running. Therefore, their exchanges were so civil that it was a stalemate. This benefits McCain because he is ahead. Rudy did not knock him off. The man who acts decisively hesitates around McCain, and if Rudy does pass him, it will be interesting to see how McCain reacts.
Rudy did slightly better than mcCain when they were not sparring, especially on the immigration and Israel issues.
The fieriest exchanges were between Thompson and huckabee. Thompson mopped up the floor with his fellow Southerner. Fred knew he could not move to the right of huckabee on social issues, but his attempts to show huckabee as an economic leftist, especially on taxes.
Fred thompson won this debate, and he won big.
As I prepared to leave my office and head home, I knew that while South Carolina was going to be a distant memory in a couple weeks, Ground Zero will be seared into my bloodstream forever.
I passed by it again on the way home, and I can still again barely suppress my rage.
The Iranian ship question would not even be asked in a democratic debate.
Forein policy questions must be asked. The War on Terror must be asked in every debate, and often.
For the sake of honoring 3000 dead New Yorkers, we must go balls out and win.
Winning means letting soldiers scorch enemy Earth. It also means government has to be better on every level. This starts with the various levels of government in New York. The construction workers are fine people. They are the best of the best. the bureaucrats need to get out of the way, and let the towers be built stronger, tougher, and higher than ever before.
I am tired of seeing that hole in the ground.
eric
Black Tygrrr;
“and let the towers be built stronger, tougher, and higher than ever before.”
And we should stick a big ole crucifix ontop of one, and a star of david on the other.
That, or the two biggest middle fingers the world has ever seen.
Good summary.
I like the idea of turning it into a memorial. There are office buildings all over NYC, and it will be forgotten unless it is a memorial.
Ron Paul won the debate. No doubt about it.
I did a text count on the debate.
“Reagan” was mentioned 38 times. The republicans apparently live in an alternate universe which is exactly 27 years behind ours.
“Bush” was mentioned only once by any of the candidates – Giuliani. Gee, I wonder why. Even then, he was referring to tax cutting and lumped him together with Reagan and Kennedy. I think Kennedy puked in his grave.
“9/11,” for a rare change was barely mentioned at all – only three times, and that was from a moderator. Satan’s wearing a winter coat today.
“Tax cuts” came up nine times. I suppose, in theory, if they cut taxes to zero government revenues would go up 100%. Must be another of those “alternate universe” things – different physics, ya’ know.
“Iran” or “Iranians” were mentioned 29 times. Oddly enough, the word “paranoid” was not mentioned once – though “military” was mentioned 14 times..
“Education” was mentioned once.
“Healthcare” was not mentioned a single time.
“Insurance” was only mentioned once, and it was a leading question about public funding for abortion.
“Infrastructure” was not mentioned once.
“Medicare” was not mentioned once.
Only Paul mentioned “Social Security,” three times in one statement.
“Crime” was mentioned all of twelve times, all in the context of “illegal immigration,” both pro and con, which itself was mentioned only four times. Praise the lord.
“Trade” was only mentioned three times, and the contexts had nothing whatsoever to do serious trade issues, but rather “Al Qaeda” and such, which thankfully was only mentioned twice.
I’m a native New Yorker myself, and was appalled by 9/11. But it is not the center of my universe. In the alternate universe of republicans, 9/11 is the only issue that matters. In that universe, the terrorists truly have accomplished everything they wanted on that fateful day – fear, division, war, paranoia, xenophobia, and a complete lack of concern for all other important matters of state.
Fox and the GOP, pathetic together.
JMJ
“…let the towers be built stronger, tougher, and higher than ever before.”
LOL! Right! They’d be the strongest, toughest, highest EMPTY buildings in the world.
JMJ
Infrastructure, health care, social security, and Medicare have what in common? Socialism… and I have to give CNN lots of credit for yesterday’s flogging of Paul for the racist papers. OK, so they are older than dirt, and they are irrelevant, because he is irrelevant.
Ron Paul did fine.
Here’s what Rudy’s reply to RP’s Israel remarks amounted to “That’s absurd because I’ve been there and know some people”. Whatever. Rudy didn’t have anything to say about the fact that we arm the Arabs while telling Israel to cool it all the time.
Personally, I would like to end aid to all of Israel’s enemies and only support Israel. But we all know that’s not going to happen in this PC country. The best alternative to that is not Rudy’s status quo position, it’s Ron Paul’s position to let Israel conduct its own affairs.
Also, McCain and another candidate I can’t remember made huge leaps in logic assuming that Ron Paul would talk and trade with Al Quaed and Hamas. K-Lo at NRO made the same leap last night. I know listening is fast becoming a lost art but this is ridiculous.
I think Fred had the best night. Huck was funny as usual. Romney was completely forgettable.
Yet, McCain has taken the lead in SC. The same guy who was carrying his own bags at the airport just a few weeks ago. This is a weird campaign season.
The Thunder Run has linked to this post in the – Web Reconnaissance for 01/11/2008 A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day…so check back often.
JMJ said;
“LOL! Right! They’d be the strongest, toughest, highest EMPTY buildings in the world.”
And all our jets and planes would be empty to if we put them in the air again
Al,
I had to check twice to make sur it was CNN I was watching when I saw that.
And this BS that he doesnt know or cant find out who wrote it was evident as he stammerd and stutterturded.
Al,
“Infrastructure, health care, social security, and Medicare have what in common? Socialism…”
No Al – Civilization. Why don’t you move to Somalia? You’d love it there. What, are you some kind of radical anarchist?
Micky, no one in their right mind would want to work in a rebuilt WTC – and certainly no one would insure the buildings or tenants. Its just a silly, way-out-there idea.
JMJ
Let me put it this way, Micky. Soon after 9/11 I was given a job offer from a company in the ESB. I told my wife. She said, “Don’t you dare %$##$% work in that building!” I heeded her, er, advice.
JMJ
“Don’t you dare %$##$% work in that building!” I heeded her, er, advice.”
(Looks like you’re afraid of radical Isalm also and someone else.)
And you say 911 didnt change anything ?
I like the way you determine what is sane and what isnt.
Common sense dictates that since you were offerd to work on it insurance must already be in place. Contractors would not be able to employe workers if it were not.
And no one would build such a property would not go forward first without knowing he could be insured. Especially when you have multiple stockholders banks and owners involved, insurance is mandatory.
“The Port Authority is making progress on the Freedom Tower. Located at the northwest corner of the World Trade Center, installation of steel columns continues as the concrete slab is being poured to form the tower’s base.
The tower will be built according to a revised design released in June 2005. The new design retains essential elements of the original plan– soaring 1,776 feet into the sky, its illuminated mast evoking the Statue of Liberty’s torch — but features a smaller, cubic base set back further from West Street to protect the building against any future terrorist attempts.”
=================================================================
“NEW YORK, February 1, 2005 — Aon Risk Services, Inc. has been appointed by
World Trade Center Properties LLC, an affiliate of Silverstein Properties,
Inc., as broker for insurance coverage related to the construction of the
Freedom Tower in Lower Manhattan.
The redevelopment of the site will have a substantial impact on the New York
area economy. According to a report by the Lower Manhattan Development
Corporation, “Rebuilding of the World Trade Center will generate $15 billion in
total economic output in New York City and an average of 8,000 jobs each year
for thirteen years.”
Pssst !
( I drive past Pearl Harbor about once a week, its jam packed with people)
“(Looks like you’re afraid of radical Isalm also and someone else.)
And you say 911 didnt change anything ?”
Well, it was just after the attacks, so the timing wasn’t so good. I actaully wanted the job, but my wife was too nervous.
The point is that all too many people would not want to work in or insure such edifaces. The stupidly named “Freedom Tower” will be a money-loser for longer than the WTC was – that is if they ever get around to actually building it.
Back to the debate…
The word “mortgage” was only mentioned once, “mortgages” not at all, and “subprime” only twice.
The GOP is so out of touch, they may as well all be in a coma.
The word “recession” was mentioned 19 times, though. But the contexts were the usual supply-side silliness.
JMJ
You dont know how to read very well do you ?
Columns are being placed and the slab is being poured !
And this statement was put to rest also !
Another example of you taliking out of your rear !
“and certainly no one would insure the buildings or tenants”
ITS ALREADY BEEN DONE ! CANT YOU READ ?
JMJ said;
“Back to the debate…”
Debate what ???????????????
Your demented over emotional cheap vague shots at the gop ?
Your not giving any numbers or examples of what you’re talking about ?
A text count WTF is that ? You determine a debate winner by the amount of texts ?
Texts from who ? Rabid Ron Paul followers who wereprobably performing multiple texts ?
Big American Idol fan huh ?
As far as your last paragraph goes. All that crap has been brought up by you over and over and over again for the last 6 or 7 months. Its nothing new !
Oh, I get it ! I’ll bet you’re thinking that you can succeed in cramming all your crap down Als throat right ? Since it obviously never worked with me.
Go ahead Al, rip away. I need a good laugh
Yeah, yeah, Micky. I know. They’re building the stupidly named “Freedom Tower.” Who knows, maybe they’ll finish it this century.
A text count gives you a goof picture about what subjects were being debated. the GOP debated subjects, for the most part, that were either irrelevent or based on the usual fear, fear, fear. I’ve never seen such a bunch of frightened sissies in all my life.
JMJ
Micky, That’s the best use of language I’ve seen in a while…”stutterturded”… full of gas and then lumped it!! I’ll borrow that one for another time… and he has/had a decent platform, but I had to discount him because of his naive intent of pulling out of Iraq. I used to be a fan of isolationism, but I pulled my head out of the sand.
Jersey, civilization is people working together for a common good, not making people who work be responsible for people who intentionally live beyond their means. I gave more money to churches/charities last year than the government stole from me because I had a voice in where it goes – to people in real need. At least the government provides decent roads and some very dedicated teachers. We also have pot holes and some not so decent teachers. The process of filling the holes and firing the bad teachers is stymied by the fact they are government-based and not engineered through supply and demand… I agree that Healthcare is out of sight, but if I have kids, I should be able to pay for their care. The argument that people can’t afford them doesn’t hold water… if they can afford to pay for electricity, air conditioning, cell phones, computers, internet access, flush toilets, and more than a couple sets of clothes, they are spending a whole lot more than they would for insurance. It is not “citizens’ rights” to maintain a standard of living that doesn’t account for basic necessities – health care being one ot them. I’ve been to Somalia – I didn’t like it there. Cost of living is pretty cheap, though. They were feeding free machete chops for lunch and bullets for dinner and did their hunting and gathering in the morning, so we had nothing for breakfast.
My bad for including “infrastructure” with social security, health, and medicare. Our infrastructure is paramount to success as a nation…sewage, electricity, water, education, transportation, sanitation (garbage trucks)…
JMJ said;
“I’ve never seen such a bunch of frightened sissies in all my life.”
Then you should of taken the job at the towers since you are such a monument to courage.
I see Jersey continues to waste bandwidth. Too bad s/he took us of fpath, because the Tygerman is correct about the importance of South Carilona. At the very least that’s where Thompson will find out if he’s going to stay in it. Without a very strong showing in South Caroline, he’s gone.
I don’t expect to see any more than threee candidates after South Carolina. 4 is a possibility, but if Thompson does well, I expect we will see the exit of either Romney or Giuliani. There isn’t room for two northeasterners. The only way they could both hang on is if McCain does horribly in Michigan and South Carolina, in which case he’ll be the non contender even if he does stay in it.
JMJ said;
‘A text count gives you a goof picture ”
And that s what led you to determine a winner ?
No wonder you guys elected the worst congress this country has ever seen, you had a “goof ” picture !
And we should trust you to elect a president ? ROTFLMAO
I also liked “…the text count gives you a goof picture about…” … whether intentional or not, it was hilarious…. which is a word I don’t use too often unless someone is particularly mean-spirited, at which point I may say they are “Hillarious”…
Why would anyone mention mortgages? I was a loan officer for several years, and just as I mentioned about preparing for Monday tests, any student of history or basic economics knew that the bubble would burst… banks and brokers were betting on the come – lending money against properties they ignorantly thought would continue to rise in value. If the home foreclosed, no problem; they could sell it to someone else for more money because prices were going to go up…so their greed bit them in the butt…and the borrowers were just as ignorant or stupid – 0% financing for a year…ARMs for 3 – 5 years… someone has to pay eventually… and subprime borrowers were making a living out of moving from home to home when the day of reckoning came…we are a spoiled people who want NYC cops to protect us at home, Uncle Sam to protect us abroad, and Santa Claus to pay our bills. The democraps are foolish, and the repubicans are arrogant (of course, I just slammed the American people for not seeing the mortgage crisis coming, so maybe I’m a little arrogant, too… Arrogant Al has a nice ring to it). I’d be a Libertarian but I don’t want to be “shushed” all the time.
Hallowed, Thanks for helping get back on track. I remember George Romney back in the dark ages in Michigan – of course – I remember Mort Neff of Michigan Outdoors, too …Mitt is a little too pretty for Michiganders; McCain should do well, and Huckabee is too nice. Early indications were that Thompson would do ok, but since Michigan has been trying to recapture the long gone days of Unions, they may surprise us with Giulliani… and these predictions are worthless, but at least they are more relevant to the issue…
“…you should of taken the job at the towers since you are such a monument to courage.”
I lack the hubris to consider myself a “monument of courage.” And I respect my wife too much to disregard her concerns.
“Why would anyone mention mortgages?”
Because 7 million of them are in danger of default.
“…and subprime borrowers were making a living out of moving from home to home when the day of reckoning came…”
Right. There were 7 million house flippers out there. Get real.
Again, the alternate universe is revealed.
Recent polls put the economy ahead of Iraq as an issue for voters. If the GOP thinks they can ignore it – especially in Michigan, which has especially hard-hit – they will be sure to lose big time come November. And if they think they can continue to push supply-side answers, even though they have been proven wrong, they will once agains be in the minority for yet another 40 years.
JMJ
7 million people too stupid to figure out that an ARM goes up? that 0% financing lasts for how long? 7 million people wanting the government to bail them out. Maybe they should sell their homes to the illegal immigrants who have jobs. 12 – 20 million illegals could easily fit into 7 million single resident homes… it’s an average five illegal families in single family housing in the South… whoops, then we couldn’t call them undocumented aliens because at least one in five would be documented on a mortgage…
You mean the media put the economy ahead of Iraq in the polls? Patterns. The media rarely reports Iraq now because there are signs of success, and they can’t stand it. Bush traded his oil stocks for Bank America so he could make a killing off Countrywide.
I see you married up. Obviously your wife sees the threat much more clearly than you.
Al never said there was 7 million house flippers.
I noticed that you have givin up the “face reality ” line and substituted it with the “alternate universe” analogy, brilliant, simply brilliant.
What recent polls ? The “goof picture ” text polls ?
Al, I’m sorry that you don’t like reality, but it is what it is. Too stupid? Maybe. But the fact remains that 7 million homeowners on the verge of default and foreclosure is an economic disaster in the making. Surely you would agree with that. And I ddon;t think anyone is suggesting that these folks be completely bailed out. They can and should be helped if only for the greater good of the larger economy. This isn’t a matter is sympathy – it’s a matter of economic security and responsible governmental stewardship.
“You mean the media put the economy ahead of Iraq in the polls? Patterns. The media rarely reports Iraq now because there are signs of success, and they can’t stand it.”
Perhaps. Or perhaps, as the old saying goes – no news is good news. There have been plenty of reprots on Iraq, good, bad or indifferent, but this is an election cycle and there are other pressing matters to consider. Maybe you should look at it this way – if there isn’t much news out of Iraq, that’s a good thing. But if there’s news coming from other issues, they should at least be addressed, especially in an election season – a way, way, way, too, too, too, loooooooong election season.
“Bush traded his oil stocks for Bank America so he could make a killing off Countrywide.”
LOL! Good one!
“I see you married up.”
LOL! Yes, in quite a few ways I suppose I have.
“Obviously your wife sees the threat much more clearly than you.”
No. I was a little concerned myself. At the time, if you remember, everyone was pretty scared. I remember the 2003 blackout. People were freaked. What if? What if the terrorists had disabled the grid so as to prepare for some kind of attack? My brother had an office in Hoboken, and a girlfriend in Harrison (I believe, at the time). now, my brother is pretty moderate politically, but he does take this stuff very seriously. It was in the afternoon and the power went out all over the NYC area. Everyone took to their cell phones as most land lines were useless. I couldn’t reach him, my wife, or anyone else. A friend of mine presumed to come to my rescue and take me home, thankfully. I lived in the town of Carteret – which just happened to be right on the power-side border of the blackout. I was home within one hour. As soon as I got home I called my brother to invite him to my house since I had power. He was at least 50 miles away, heading to my other brother’s house, having left the office in Hoboken, picked up his girlfriend in Harrison, and driven all the way accross Jersey in heavy traffic!
Look, we all take terrorism seriously. It’s just that some people think that you guys are going WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY overboard with it.
“What recent polls?”
There was mention of a couple of polls on the subject on the news over the past couple of hours. Might have been Fox too, because I had them on for a while today. Gotta check in with the Devil once in a while, ya’ know! Anyway, it was an issue measurement poll, so take it for wjhat it’s worth – people are worried about the economy. I saw one poll today that showed 61% of Americans think we’re in recession. Even if that were off by 20 points, it’s stil disconcerting. And even if the media truly generates this stuff (it would be worrisome enough to think the public is THAT stupid!), it still should make you wonder what’s going on with the economy. Just as you say I shouldn’t ignore terrrism, and I don’t, you shouldn’t ignore other issues – they matter too, sometimes even more.
JMJ
Thanks for giving me a glimpse of a day in the life of Jersey.
but you still havnt said anything new or cleared anything up.
“Might have been Fox too, because I had them on for a while today. ”
I’m gonna have to buy more underwear if you keep saying things like that.
I’m going to have to buy more underwear if I keep watching Fox! LOL!
JMJ
This would be a better blog if the spammer would reign it in a bit.
Am I the “spammer,” Hallowed? Or are you getting some spam from this site?
(spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spammity spam, wonderful spaaaaaam, spamity spam, wonderful spaaaaaam!!!)
JMJ
Yes, Jersey. You are the spammer!
SPAM !!!!
Isnt that the noise two glutes make when they slam together ?
SPAM!!! That’s the crushing gravity slamming thousands of gallons of water into people’s homes…people who were brilliant enough to build homes with an aboveground pool the size of Lake Ponchatrain. Man vs nature: gravity wins over time. Now they are suing for being stupid? A shameless breed, we humans… slamming glutes ??? that’s a classic
What do you make of Mr. Thompson endorsing the diversion of U.S. aid funds specifically earmarked for anti-Al Qaeda activities to the Pakistani military’s anti-India weapons program.
That’s what he did in the South Carolina debate.
This is what he was talking about:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/24/world/asia/24military.html?ref=todayspaper
I think you mean “troll,” Hallowed. But a troll usually trolls around trolling many different sites posting basically the same trollations over and over trying to start trollacious trollifications. It’s similar to spam, but rarely automatic like spam, usually manually. I don’t do that. You can call me a spammer or a troller if you please, but it only makes you look like an intellectual coward, unable and therefore unwilling to put your beliefs where your mouth is and argue and debate. If your beliefs are so weak that you cannot deal with controversion then perhaps you should reconsider what you think to be true.
Oh, and to the Jacksonville Jaguars – BEAT THE &^%#$% PATRIOTS!!!!
JMJ
“Intellectual coward”
I’ve seen halloweds posts jersey. And he does controvert very well with a point.
For him to step off on the side and call you a spammer is not really intellectual cowardice. Its his interpretation of your contribution to the debate.
I myself have probably known you longer than anyone on these threads besides Eric.
The word I would choose for you would be “instigator”.
I get the impression that sometimes you feel you have a duty to incite conversation by saying anything, no matter how indicative of malice it might be.
I’m hip to your game. Even when it seems like you’re saying something that most people would blow off as just stupid or call “spam”, I will come after it anyway. Just out of the principle that “stupid ” should be approached and squashed as much a complex and intelligent but misguided statement.
Manson was intelligent and complex. But the means nor the ends justified any of it.
But still, as much as what he says is wrong , discardable and worth ignoring, I would come after him any way just out of the principle that we must slap little kids who run around poking people in the eye just to see how they will react.
Back to the “intellectual coward” thing.
That was the pot calling the kettle black. Period.
I have lost count of how many times I have asked you to convince me of your allegations and accusations with examples in the form of transcripts, documents or articles . But yet you rarely produce anything to prove concensus or actuality other than expecting to people to take your word for it.
Expecting people to take your word for everything is the ultimate example of “intellectual cowardice”
Asking those of us to just take your word for everything shows that you are intellectually faulty. First because you underestimate the intellectual requirements of your fellow man. Basically ” YOU THINK WE’RE ALL IDIOTS”
An intellectual man in pursuit of even more intellect would not assume this of his fellow man. He would also do some homework and show his findings so as to promote his position, and not expect his word to be final and gospel.
So I suggest you put away the ” I am smarter than you ” banner.
That banner, in and of itself is the trademark of true intellectual cowardice
Intillectual cowardice
Intelligent people read the Times
People with good taste read the Times
I’m noticing a pattern.
I’m trying to find a sense of good taste so I can read the Times. If I can read the Times, mebbe Iz can git more smarterer n venchuallee smart enuff to d-bait u. Until then, it looks about as much fun as debating the left-rear quarterpanel on a 76 Buick.
I can be out in the sun when I debate the Buick. You lose.
I’ve seen all the empty liberal arguments before. They are as follows;
Fox News is right wing trash
CNN is gospel
Olberman is great
Rush is a party hack
Bush is stupid
Clinton is a stand-up guy
Big Oil
Haliburton
Stolen Election
Whatever they read at Daily Kos that day
Bush got us into Iraq for his Big Oil friends.
Before the invasion, it was supposedly for the cheap oil, once that never happened, they changed the excuse to ‘so Big Oil can charge us more’. No lib has ever admitted they were wrong about the cheap oil. Not one.
In short, Jersey, I have chosen not to debate you, not out of cowardice, but because I’ve been over all these talking points hundreds of times before. These arguments are now older than some good wines.
The liberal memes you parrot are not the result of intellectual superiority, don’t flatter yourself. They’re nothing more than the direct result of intellectual dishonesty.
Giuliani: “Disagreements about social issues should not trump being competitive in 50 states”
This is exactly why I — and large blocs of conservatives like gun owners, Christian conservatives, right-to-lifers, and many others — will never vote for Baldy. To us, conservatism on social issues DEFINE the acceptability of a candidate. If one is truly conservative, in the Originalist sense of the word, then BY DEFINITION one will also be a fiscal and foreign policy conservative.
Anything else is essentially a form of neo-conism.
I would rather see the Dem candidate win than facilitate the ever-Leftward slide of the GOP as it panders after some non-existent uncommitted demographic. If that slide continues, all you have to do to see the coming result is look to my state, California. We have a purportedly “Republican” Governator who caucuses with the Sacramento Democrats, ignores the Republicans, and treats conservatives like they have rabies. He proposes his own liberal policies like a state “Greenhouse Gas” initiative (passed into law, and will cripple the state economically) and UHC. Is that what you want for the rest of the country? Then go ahead and vote for Baldy.
IMO, if we have to put up with one term of a Dem, a la Carter, to get a conservative successor a la Reagan, then so be it.
Also, you can think I mean troll all you want. That does not make it so. We covered why that is, no?
GO PATRIOTS!!!
BrianR,
I’m with you all the way on that. Rudy as the GOP candidate spells big trouble for the GOP. If the GOP sells itself out for a chance at some gay votes, it stops being the party for real conservative. Likewise with a big spender candidate.
Yes, sir, Hallowed.
I don’t know when the GOP is going to finally learn that lesson. They lost both houses of Congress last year; do they need to make it a trifecta?
Hallowed, you suggested I be “reigned in.” That makes you an itellectual coward. Period. As for “spam,” I suggest you consult a dictionary.
If you guys have noticed, there really is no top tier GOP candidate with true conservative bona fides. Giuliani, Romney, McCain and Huckabee all have had serious differences with the GOP establishment to one extent or another. That should tell you something – the GOP knows darned well that another Bush-type wouldn’t stand a snowballs chance in heck. The American people have just about had it with what you guys call “conservatism.”
JMJ
Sadly, Brian, I think they do. The GOP, at the Federal level, is far too infected with Fatcat Ivory Tower trunks to put forward a platform that isn’t just slightly less populist than the donks platform.
Most Sams Club republicans feel left out in the cold for a reason. They believe in the core principles of conservatism and their leadership doesn’t. They also know, which the GOP leadership seems to have forgotten, that the ‘middle’ will respond positively to a strong conservative candidate who puts forth their case in a clear manner. That’s how a conservative wins the Whitehouse. They have to give the base a reason to work for them, and give the middle a reason to be attracted.
The simple fact is, when the Republicans run a solid conservative candidate, they win. That’s how Reagan won, that’s why Bush lost his second run (and Perot) , that’s how W won twice.
Jersey, I agree with you on that. The top tier trunks are not conservatives.
Jersey, a “Bush-type” hardly meets any criterion as a conservative. No way. “Compassionate conservative” is simply code for “liberal” or “neo-con”.
And “top tier” is virtually meaningless, as right now everything seems up for grabs.
True conservatives in the race: Thompson and Hunter; which would, incidentally, be a very winning ticket.
Jersey, evidently we were writing at the same time, and I absolutely agree with your second post.
And I agree it’s a “sadly” type situation.
A couple of more examples of solid wins by true conservatives: Bobby Jindahl in Louisiana, and Sarah Palin in Alaska.
The evidence is right there! C;mon, GOP! Wake up and smell the bacon!
Jersey, I suggest you reign yourself in for the betterment of this blog. If you feel that’s cowardice, there’s no sense in discussing the matter with you.
All I’m suggesting is that you put forward more than empty rhetoric, or pull back on your number of posts.
Brian, Human Events just endorsed Thompson. We won’t know if that will be enough for him until South Carolina most likely. No later than Florida for sure.
Hallowed…..
YIPPEEE!!!!
That’s great news! Thanks for the heads up.
I’m planning on voting for Fred in the primary, and I’ve sent him $200 of my hard-earned bucks.
I’ve donated to him as well. IF he gets the nomination, he’ll get more. If one of the current leading candidates get the nomination, I’m not sure they will get anything from me.
This is a question for Jersey.
Which candidate do you feel is the best candidate on the GOP side?
I’ve looked at the Democrats. It’s my opinion that HIllary(!) is the best democrat. she has been the only one with enough guts to state publicly that pulling out of Iraq requires a lot of prep work. It’s easier said than done. In the New Hampshire debate, she had mentioned specifically getting citizenship for our interepreters. That’s a real issue and she was the only one willing to bring it up. These people are dead if we leave them behind. She showed a real sign of leadership there.
On a personal note, the interpreter that worked for my brother while he was in Iraq is now living in Maryland. He had originally planned on moving to the Arab conclave in Michigan, but once he got to Maryland, he said he wasn’t going to Michigan because “There’s too many Arabs there. He’s tired of Arabs”. Lol!
Hallowed, if you recall, Reagan ran in ’80 as a Law and Order, Fiscal Conservative in the vein of Barry Goldwater. He paid little lip service, and almost only lip service, to the Social Conservatives issues save for the Law and Order authoritarians. This caused a permenent rift in the GOP bewteen the Libertarians and the Conservatives, then the tradtional cores of the party. That rift has been further exaserbated by the rise of the Religious Right, which was really just getting started back then. The theocratic authoritarians, once bipartisan and isolated, then filled that great right and became the main core of the GOP base. This is why I’m not a Republican.
The myth that Reagan was the panultimate Conservative (much like the myth that JFK was the panultimate Liberal) is propogated by the partisan establishments because these figures just happen to be very popular. Reagan wasn’t popular because he was a “conservative,” (if you remember, it wasn’t a popular term in those days) he was popular because he gave the genuine impression that he could bring the nation back together after the turmoil, whether real or not, of the 60’s and 70’s. Some of what he
He promised to and did pretty much everything he said he would, except reign in the growth of government and reduce spending – the very central recurring theme of modern Republicanism. He axed the marginal rate, so the rich republicans loved him and still adore him, he opened the trade doors and made the retail sector very happy, he cracked down on the terrible crime we were having at the time (with no success whatsoever) and made a fortune for the prison industrial complex, he blew countless billions on the military industrial complex and made permenent friends of the GOP and the military sector, etc, etc.
But to say that we need another Reagan now would be to literally fart from your own mouth. The world is completely different today. No Cold War, no bilateral trade, mass migrations and a completely different private sector. We are already in two endlessly hot wars, we have no manufacturing base anymore, unions represent less than 8% of the private sector. We are on the verge of recession and yet another Reaganesque economic collapse ala ’87 when all the his irresponsible deregulation and lack of good faith regulating come home to roost. All this and you guys think you need another Reagan?
The top tier GOPers are all mavericks to one degree or another. Even Thompson strikes me as far less “conservative” than you guys think. And the crazy outside horse in this race is a hard core Constitutionalist. Usually that position would be filled by a Religious Right candidate. What does that tell you?
I know what it tells me.
JMJ
“Jersey, I suggest you reign yourself in for the betterment of this blog. If you feel that’s cowardice, there’s no sense in discussing the matter with you.
All I’m suggesting is that you put forward more than empty rhetoric, or pull back on your number of posts.”
And you would actually waste a post on writing this, huh?
Try more debate and less personal critique. I really don’t care what you think of my writing. And don’t start with me and I won’t start with you.
JMJ
I meant ot say, “This is why I’m not a Republican, anymore.” I favored them until after the ’87 crashes and scandals and the rise of the religious right authoritarians. I always figured the corporatists were really in charge (and stlill are), but that’s always been true of both parties – just different corporations.
JMJ
Spent needless billions on military. It was forwinning the Cold War?
How do you arrive at that needless conclusion?
And yes, I do believe that law and order is strong platform. People still like to have societies rapists and murderers punished.
He axed the tax rate, freeing up capital to grow the economy. In case you hadn’t noticed, economic growth since his policies took effect have blown the doors off the economy of the 70’s.
As for not cutting spending, you can thank your democrat friends who controlled Congress at the time.
Most importantly when did I ever say that Reagan was the panultimnate conservative?
I’m not understanding the reason for the anti-Reagan tirade.
And where do you come up with this mythical economic crash of 87? We had a stock market crash, but no economic crash.
And, unlike yourself, I’ll back up my statement with actual factual facts. And links.
http://www.bea.gov/national/nipaweb/TableView.asp#Mid
http://www.bea.gov/national/nipaweb/TableView.asp?SelectedTable=1&FirstYear=2006&LastYear=2007&Freq=Qtr
Going back 25 years to the thrid quarter of 82 (third quarter of 07 is the most recent numbers) We have had five negative growth quarters. None of which occur in 1987!
Q4-1990 -3.0%
Q1-1991 -2.0%
Q3-2000 -0.5%
Q1-2001 -0.5%
Q3-2001 -1.4%
In fact, three out of five negative growth quarters in the last twenty five years came after 4 years of Clinton government surplus.
If we go back longer than 25 years, we can many many more negative quarters, but those are hard to blame on Reagan since one of his reasons for getting into office was the crap economy.
“Spent needless billions on military.”
I didn’t say that. I said he “blew countless billions on the military industrial complex and made perm(a)nent friends of the GOP and the military sector.” He grew that sector’s layout to almost two thrids of discretionary spending. It was not necessary. It was done to make “permanent friends of the GOP and the military sector.” The USSR was bound to fall with or without it. The myth that Regan “won the Cold War” is just that – a myth. He played a large part in those end days, but he did not bring down the USSR. The USSR brought down itself.
“And yes, I do believe that law and order is strong platform. People still like to have societies rapists and murderers punished.” It’s not nearly the issue today that it was back in the 80’s. Crime rates are nowhere near where they were then. Most social ills today are far less menacing today than they were in the 80’s. That’s why “law and order” issues barely blip on the issue polls any more. If anything, the states are finally starting to pare down some of the draconian laws and rules that were imposed back in the 80’s – especially the non-violent drug laws, which are disgusting and blatantly classist and racist.
“He axed the tax rate, freeing up capital to grow the economy. In case you hadn’t noticed, economic growth since his policies took effect have blown the doors off the economy of the 70’s.”
Grow shmoe. Just because the economy “grows” that’s good enough for you conservatives to proclaim national and economic sucess. Very, very simplistic. The economy grew for some. alright. There wasn’t growth much for most others. There never has been since.
“As for not cutting spending, you can thank your democrat friends who controlled Congress at the time.”
Reagan and the Dems colluded. Reagan giot what he wanted and they got what they wanted. Most of the rest of us got screwed.
“Most importantly when did I ever say that Reagan was the panultimnate conservative?”
It was a conversational inference – a segway.
“I’m not understanding the reason for the anti-Reagan tirade.”
I detest Reagan and everything he stood for. I think historians will consider him the first president to reign in a long, painful decline of America. Perhaps the last.
JMJ
Well, if you stopped being a Republican because of a stock market crash, see ya!
To be truthful, it sounds to me like none of what you coincides with Republican beliefs, so either you A) flip flopped on every political issue over a stock market event, or B) are full of it up to your eyes and were never a Republican.
Okay, that’s my last post until later. I’m in a the middle of a few things and I can’t even get all the words in my posts!
Later.
The decline of America will be caused by the division of Americans which is directly caused by liberal progressives,the PC idiots, the ACLU, CAIR, and organizations such as Move On.Org and their fearless leader, George Sorros.
Eric, having said that, I just wanted to come in and congratulate you on the work you did on this post. I am impressed, and you certainly generated a lot of debate here. I have no intention of spoiling the fun that others are having by entering into the debate with Jersey. I have no respect for anyone who detests Ronald Reagan, and find no challenge in debating with someone I cannot respect.
Excellent post!
Jersey, “This is why I’m not a Republican, anymore.” I used to be a democrat in the great state of Michigan…and a card-carrying union member. 38 years ago, the union rep came to me and said, “Here’s the application to join the union. It’s a buck a week, and you get a rubber tire ash tray with Goodyear on it”. I declined. Two days later, all four tires of my brand new Mustang were slashed. I joined the union, and though I didn’t smoke, I was a proud owner of a rubber tire ash tray…and present-day unions have since created false expectations about the worth of unskilled labor, which is why Michigan has been in the toilet since the early 80s. I think it was you who used the phrase “cognitive dissonance” a while back – and it’s that same physical discomfort I get when I hear and read zealots spewing inductive reasoning – using specific falsehoods or examples out of context to make general assumptions and/or arguments. Unions had their place, but there has to be a balance. Reagan made people feel good, and he was a hands-off leader – someone who let others do their jobs and encouraged the laws of supply and demand…and we thrived in spite of “trickle down economic” jabs that failed to deter economic growth…and people hated that he was right. You are obviously a prolific reader and student of history. I’m on “Hallowed ground” here – rather than what or who you are against, what or who are you for? Thanks
For more insight into Mr. Mcjerseys love for Ronald Reagan see here. > http://blacktygrrrr.wordpress.com/2008/01/04/a-pope-and-a-hope-huckleberry-hound-and-obamarama-met-andy-warhol/#comments.
I am not being vindictive or malicious jersey. I just figured I would give everyone a head start so they can get right to the meat of your matter.
Jan. 4th JMJ said;
“Really, Micky. What the hell did Reagan do for regular people like us? I’ll tell you what he did – NOTHING. He was a useless sack of ordure. “
Hallowed,
I wasn’t just talking about the stock market crash – I’m talking about the S&Ls, Prudential, the real estate crash, and the whole sordid mess that Reagan left for America to clean up.
Al,
“(P)resent-day unions have since created false expectations about the worth of unskilled labor, which is why Michigan has been in the toilet since the early 80s.”
That’s an interesting remark. Then I take it you are pro mass unskilled immigration. We liberals have a name for those guys – cheap labor cons.
“Unions had their place, but there has to be a balance.”
And you wouyld call what we have now balance? What about the Card Check law? What;s the problem with that? Oh, right, it’s not “democratic.” I call bull. They want open voting so they can get away with firing organizers with a plausible denialbility of who they are. It’s a con – a scam. Balance? Reagan erased that. It’s all the corporate way now. And I can’t believe you denied the union. That just sounds insane. Why would you even think to do that? What plant would hire a guy who wouldn’t know what was what with the union 38 years ago???
I don’t hate that Reagan was “right.” I don’t care about simpleminded measurements of “growth.” I don’t really hate Reagan, I suppose. I suppose he was a product of his times. But I do hate what he did. He – or I should say “His crowd” – created an insoluable political stratification that has stymied real progress and development in America ever since. I see no real progress in this country since Reagan. If anything, I have seen us stumble farther and farther behind. We are being overtaken in progress and innovation for the first time in a century by our international competition. Our boat’s lowering while their’s is rising. I blame the whole Reagan Movement on that.
JMJ
“…for that!”
JMJ
“Then I take it you are pro mass unskilled immigration.” More faulty logic. Just because I’m not a fan of strong-armed unions doesn’t mean I’m pro mass unskilled immigration. It isn’t an either/or argument. I had a new roof put on last year. I got three quotes – and I paid $1,500 more than the lowest quote and $1,000 more than the second lowest quote because the guy I hired used US citizens. We make choices. Whether it’s lawn care (p.s. I call my wife Juanita – she’s the pool lady, and she calls me Juan – I’m the weed puller), cutting down trees in my back yard, or having the house painted, I’ll pay a little more in the near term for legals or the neighbor kid so I don’t have to pay more taxes in the long term because hospitals are full of non-taxpaying illegals and schools are using limited resources for ESL. Besides, I’m paying a ton too much for auto insurance because of socialistic, illegal-friendly no-fault insurance…but that’s a different argument!
” I can’t believe you denied the union.” I’ve gotten screwed a few times by employers, but I refuse to be a victim. Yes, most corporations will take advantage of employees, but they also understand bottom lines, and if people are good workers, they’ll keep them hired and pay them for what they are worth in the long run. While I was busting my butt building tires for Goodyear, my buddy was hiding from the supervisors, sleeping in the tire rolls…and we both got paid the same wages. Unions today are more socialism, encouraging mediocrity and limiting individual achievement.
All your arguments about Reagain should be applied to FDR – he’s the real culprit behind the US falling behind. Our Socialistic policies stifle innovation.
Jersey, what party did you abandon when tech cratered and the stock market crashed (A very klong bear market before we got through the double bottom, btw)while scandals unfolded during the Clinton administration?
I worked for a union once. Once Teamsters, in fact. The only time I ever saw a rep was during election time and never once did they ever come to bat for any of the employees I worked with.
Unions now are nothing more than political organizations. They are self-perpetuating bureaucracies just like any other political group. Long gone are they days when they served their purpose more than themselves.
Al,
““Then I take it you are pro mass unskilled immigration.” More faulty logic. Just because I’m not a fan of strong-armed unions doesn’t mean I’m pro mass unskilled immigration.”
You had prior said that “present-day unions have since created false expectations about the worth of unskilled labor, which is why Michigan has been in the toilet since the early 80s.” So, what did you mean by that? Of the fur to five thousand manufacturers who go into every automobile, for example, what has since changed about where they operate and who works for them? You would have to be a cheap labor con to make such a statement. The only false expectation is the expectation that workers will be legally employed and treated fairly. If they ask that much, the manufacterers, thanks to the cheap labor cons, will either simply iumport cheaper labor or off-shore the work. Obviously, you prefer these options.
“I’ve gotten screwed a few times by employers, but I refuse to be a victim.”
Once there was a time when people understood that what you just said is the very reason there are unions in the first place. It’s precisely about not being victimized.
“All your arguments about Reagain should be applied to FDR – he’s the real culprit behind the US falling behind. Our Socialistic policies stifle innovation.”
The economy did fantastic after FDR, so did almost all progress in general. It wasn’t until the 80’s that the country began to fall behind. FDR was among the greatest of all presidents. Reagan was a corporate puppet. And Bush is a joke.
Hallowed,
“Jersey, what party did you abandon when tech cratered and the stock market crashed (A very klong bear market before we got through the double bottom, btw)while scandals unfolded during the Clinton administration?”
Certainly not the knee-jerk, chickenhawk GOP! IMHO neither party reacted to 9/11 very maturely.
As for the Clinton “scandals,” I’ll leave that for the silly Fox News viewer to enjoy with other such low-brow delights as the current escapades of OJ Simpson and Brittany Spears.
“Unions now are nothing more than political organizations.”
Was tere ever some confusiopn you had about that? What the heck else would a union be?
“They are self-perpetuating bureaucracies just like any other political group.”
Or private sector group! What’s the difference? Bureaucracies are bureaucracies. Private sector, public sector, they’re all the same.
“Long gone are they days when they served their purpose more than themselves.”
And wrong thinking like that is why we’ve had miserable progress in that past 25 years. Irrational, silly, self-defeating, purely ideological hatred of unions. The corporatist PR has really gotten to you.
JMJ
JMJ said;
“Once there was a time when people understood that what you just said is the very reason there are unions in the first place. It’s precisely about not being victimized.”
How’s this for victimization.
Unions are based on the same doctrine of as communism.
No matter how well or badly you perform or excel , we are all equal. The guy who busts his tail looses motivation when he sees those around him whacking off and getting the same pay. There is no incentive to go above and beyond due the fact that competition amongst peers has been taken away by the safety net of guaranteed employment at any level of failure. The leaders of productivity decide that extended effort is futile and regress to a substandard level of performance.
The result becomes a second rate product that is overpriced due to mob extortion of the company.
If you knew your progress or failure was imperative to the direction of your progress you are more than likely to be inclined to take the extra initiative to go above and beyond. And when you are rewarded for that effort it only compels you to do more.
When others around see the results obtained by this attitude such as receiving better scheduling or especially a raise (cuz yer worth it ) it becomes infectious. What results is a company that has created healthy vibrant competition within itself.
Much like the free market being based on supply and demand,the same applies to the work place.
Having an Assoc. Science in management and supervising crews in both union and non union houses I can confidently say that a non union house has ALWAYS shown more initiative and better creativity .
So , the real victim is not the employees who are not protected by unions.Its the public who pays outrageous prices for second rate products due to inflated salaries from union strong arming techniques
The butchers in my store just went on strike. Some of them did not want to, but due to union pressure they could not be scabs without serious consequences. Scabbing in a union house is always met by other members with some form of retaliation. Usually enough to drive a guy out who just wants to feed his family.
We have labor laws to protect people from being victims.
Unions are only used to drive up salaries that are without merit.
But let me ask you this Mr Mc Jersey ? do you think you would ever get any further than the highest pay scale allowable in a union house ? No matter how hard you try ?
No you wouldn’t! Union scale salaries have a ceiling and a scheduled protocol that is stifling to any motivation to progress.
I’m not sure what a cheap labor con is… since I’m a nut, maybe it’s like being a p-con. Perhaps the economy thrived during FDR’s time because the nation was at war, and industry learned about assembly lines… and Micky did a nice job outlining why unions, which do use the same principles as socialism and communism, perpetuate mediocrity and stifle progress. Don Quixote from the alternate universe signing off… (windmills generate air…lots and lots of air… and I can’t believe I have been attacking it with such fervor…) :)
Al , you might enjoy this read.
http://micky2.wordpress.com/2007/10/14/loosing-your-tip/
Micky, Thanks for the “tip”!
Micky,
“Unions are based on the same doctrine of as communism.
No matter how well or badly you perform or excel , we are all equal. The guy who busts his tail looses motivation when he sees those around him whacking off and getting the same pay. There is no incentive to go above and beyond due the fact that competition amongst peers has been taken away by the safety net of guaranteed employment at any level of failure. The leaders of productivity decide that extended effort is futile and regress to a substandard level of performance.”
If unions are like communism, then what is a chamber of commerce like? Fascism? That’s just silly. Unions represent people that ostensibly already have the necessary readiness, willingness, and ability to do a job. You can’t get in a union in the first place unless you have that skill set. Just as a chamber of commerce or a trade organization recognizes all it’s composite entities as relatively equal, so to do the unions. But that doesn’t mean that being a union member makes you impervious to your own failings. I’ve wworked in union shops. I’ve seen people get fired for misbehavior and I’ve seen people get raises and promotions for superior productivity. This argument you are making about unions is both moot and a myth. Firstly, a union exists to protect it’s members from abuse and give them some measure of job security, not to actually run businesses. Secondly, there are many different unions, and many different factions within unions, so it would be quite presumptuous to lump them all together, especially with the wrong and silly label of “communist.”
“The result becomes a second rate product that is overpriced due to mob extortion of the company.”
American productivity, product quality and price stability all did just fine when almost a third of it’s workforce was unionized. You’re argumant is historically wrong on the face of it. Look at the 40’s, 50’s, and 60’s. Look at productivity, inflation, the balance of trade, wealth disparity, or pretty much any indicator from that time period that you like. How does your argument stand against those facts?
“Much like the free market being based on supply and demand,the same applies to the work place.”
So China is a free market, huh? If you think that labor supply and demand works when you thrown in foreign labor, both here and abroad, from countries that do not engage in free market principles, then you are ideologically cheating!
“Having an Assoc. Science in management and supervising crews in both union and non union houses I can confidently say that a non union house has ALWAYS shown more initiative and better creativity.”
That’s because you blindly hate unions because people like Rush Limbaugh told you so. I don’t believe you.
“But let me ask you this Mr Mc Jersey ? do you think you would ever get any further than the highest pay scale allowable in a union house ?”
Scale is based on skill and work. You can work your way up to anything you want, with or without the unions. Your question is moot.
AL,
“I’m not sure what a cheap labor con is…”
Someone who’s prime objective is to reduce the price of labor at all costs, regardless of the consequences. It is a person who ignores Henry Ford’s rule of “pay them enough to buy your product” in favor of “pay them as little as possible to keep the profit margin as wide as possible,” regardless of the long term. They endorse mass illegal immigration – and keeping it illegal so that the workers can be abused carte blanche. They endorse free trade with countries that are neither free nor engaging in free trade themselves.
“Perhaps the economy thrived during FDR’s time because the nation was at war, and industry learned about assembly lines…”
Just the same, would that not be the ultimate example of Keyensian economics in action? The same would be true of Eisenhower’s infrastructure program, or Trumans forced integration of the military, etc, etc. Sometimes the government has to step in, invest, regulate, stimulate, and encourage progress.
As for Micky and his “tips,” I guess his employer just isn’t very good at hiring quality labor. I’d get another job, if I were him.
Still though, really guys, Somalia has all the qualities you guys are looking for – no public healthcare or education, no unions, no regulations, the ultimate free market! Somalia must be Utopia to you guys! Why not just relocate there and see how it works out?
JMJ
If people like us moved to Somalia, all the Socialists would starve
What socialists? We Americans are probably the least socialistic people in the First World! Nonsense.
JMJ
I’ll bet when Al says socialists, he means the socialistic entitlement freaks who are robbing our country blind. Guys like Al And myself are your all buddys meal tickets Jersey !
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JMJ;
“You can’t get in a union in the first place unless you have that skill set. ”
BS! Where did you pull that out from ? You can pay your dues and go to work as a bag boy, trash collector or better yet be enrolled as an apprentice and have no skills yet to speak of. If management is willing to train you , you’re in. I paid my intimation as an Iron worker and wasn’t worth a damn until after a two year apprenticeship. Got paid 26 bucks an hour plus benefits and a 400 dollar bonus every 7 months for just carrying Iron around. If it rained for 5 minutes 10 minutes into the day we went home with full pay. Even if it stopped raining 1/2 an hour later. If the carpenters didn’t show up to do something any Al Bundy could do we would sit around sometimes for hours waiting instead of just doing it ourselves so we could do our job.
In the hotels it was almost the same thing. One guy in a specific department doesn’t show we are not allowed to do his job. For instance the writers strike. It cost thousands of others to go look for work elsewhere since production came to a halt.
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JMJ;
“I’ve worked in union shops. I’ve seen people get fired for misbehavior and I’ve seen people get raises and promotions for superior productivity.”
Misbehavior ? what does that have to do with crappy work ?
They still cant pay you above scale, you know that, don’t you ?
I did an ice carving once for the Kona Hilton. As sous chef I was getting about 23 bucks an hour (25 years ago) It took me 1/2 an hour to do the carving. I had received 12.50 for carving that piece. It went out as a buffet center piece for 350.00. The ice cost 30.00 and labor was 12.50. That’s a 500% profit margin. I bitched about it and so they decided that from then on when I did carvings for them they would pay me at garde` mange scale for 30.00 an hour. So I would get an extra 2.50.
In a private house or a non union kitchen I command my own price at no less than 200.00 an hour.
==================================================================
I don’t even see how you lump unions and the Chamber of commerce together.
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JMJ ;
“American productivity, product quality and price stability all did just fine when almost a third of it’s workforce was unionized. You’re argument is historically wrong on the face of it. Look at the 40’s, 50’s, and 60’s. Look at productivity, inflation, the balance of trade, wealth disparity, or pretty much any indicator from that time period that you like. How does your argument stand against those facts?”
The unions are all diving today because they put out crappy products. By the 60s and 70s people were getting tired of it..
You yourself said you would drive a Toyota cuz you get more bang for your buck. That kind of motivation is what was killing American industry in the 60s and 70s
In the 60s and 70s we all started buying Chinese and Japanese products like crazy because the price was right and they were reliable.
Did you ever think about those facts ?
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JMJ ;
“So China is a free market, huh? If you think that labor supply and demand works when you thrown in foreign labor, both here and abroad, from countries that do not engage in free market principles, then you are ideologically cheating! ”
How the hell does a communist country apply to what I was saying ? A good employee is simply paid better because he is worth more. In a union house almost everyone knows what each other makes. In a private house salaries and wages are not discussed for the simple reason that its nobody’s business what I make. Management reserves the right to pay more for more . Period. Unions don’t allow this.
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JMJ;”Scale is based on skill and work. You can work your way up to anything you want, with or without the unions. Your question is moot.”
Its not moot, your knowledge is moot. You can only go so high on union scale. Management and profit sharing are the next elevation for anyone wanting to go past scale. The union will constrain your progress as opposed to a fluid system of management that is allowed to operate and perform sensible options. without a bunch of stupid rule.
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JMJ;
“As for Micky and his “tips,” I guess his employer just isn’t very good at hiring quality labor. I’d get another job, if I were him.”
We went through this once before. That statement shows your idealistic and ignorance when it comes to almost any business. You’re delusional if you think any business can hire a staff where all the employees are all 100% equal in production and value. You always have better or worse employees.
That would be a totally communistic and almost robotic ideal if you could have absolute equality amongst all individuals. SOCIALISTIC UTOPIA.
And your arrogant ignorance really showed after you read my article and decided that you knew how to run a restaurant better than me because you once worked as a busboy at Dennys. Your knowledge of the field is a freckle on the ass my knowledge.
Its like a fifth grader telling a heart surgeon how to do his job because he saw a cats guts all over the street once. I have managed at least 10 kitchens in my life and 6 houses of quality that you could probably not afford.
I make my price at the floor via my tips. Management does not do that for me.
The customer has the liberty to pay me more if I’m worth it and no one should be allowed to take from me what I am worth.
Micky,
“I’ll bet when Al says socialists, he means the socialistic entitlement freaks who are robbing our country blind. Guys like Al And myself are your all buddys meal tickets Jersey!”
You guys? My buddies? I doubt it.
I don’t think you really know much about unions, Micky. I think you are just regurgitating rightwing cheap-labor con talking points. You don;t even work in a sector that would expose you to much union activity.
“I don’t even see how you lump unions and the Chamber of commerce together.”
Ugh. Try to follow me here – if businesses can get together and form trade groups, pacs, lobbying organizations, etc, then why can’t workers get together for their interests? I smell hypocrisy. That’s why I made the allusion to that ridiculous, silly, comic-bookish assertion that unions were somehow communistic, saying that if that was the case than a chamber of commerse would, by that reasoning, be fascistic. Just silly.
“The unions are all diving today because they put out crappy products.”
That’s nasty. You think Americans are subpar workers, Micky? You think they make crappy products? You really hate American workers, huh? The reason unions are dying is because of a concerted effort to squash them from the government in cahoots with the corporate sector.
“You yourself said you would drive a Toyota cuz you get more bang for your buck.”
That’s because they are designed better. Most of them are assembled here by the very same American workers that you think are no goodniks, and the parts the Japanese use come from better sources than the cheap labor junk the American companies use. It’s yet another example of corporate cannibalism of the American economy.
“How the hell does a communist country apply to what I was saying?”
Because cheap labor con “free trade” with that communist country is what has pu the final nail in the coffen our manufacturing sector.
“A good employee is simply paid better because he is worth more.”
LOL!!!! ROTFLMAO!!!! Yeah, right. And markets always behave rationally, right? LOL!!! OMG, that was funny!!!
Oh Micky, I wish that were true.
“Its not moot, your knowledge is moot. You can only go so high on union scale.”
Again, you don’t understand unions. You can do anything you want, with or without the unions, as long as you’re lucky and work hard.
“You always have better or worse employees.”
Quality employers hire quality employees. That is the general rule. If you work for morons, then you probably will work with morons. I always found it was better to work for smart people.
“And your arrogant ignorance really showed after you read my article and decided that you knew how to run a restaurant better than me because you once worked as a busboy at Dennys.”
LOL!!! I worked at the finest restaurant in town when I was a kid. Again, you said you worked with lazy bums, so that tells me that your employer isn’t very good at making quality hires.
JMJ
Finest newspaper, finest restaurant……
Finest logic… I was almost that smart when I was 18, but I couldn’t pull all those personal experiences out of my fourth point of contact because it wasn’t big enough…
JMJ;
“You guys? My buddies? I doubt it.”
You seem to kiss their asses pretty well.
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JMJ;
” don’t think you really know much about unions, Micky. I think you are just regurgitating rightwing cheap-labor con talking points. You don;t even work in a sector that would expose you to much union activity.’
Local 480. At 16 -17 I was a courtesy clerk and later a cashier at Safeway.
Local 5, the Hawaii hotel workers union. At 18, the Hawaiian regent. At 20, the Hilton. At 22, the Halekulani. At 23 the Summit at 51st. and Lexington.
Iron workers local union 377, Fontana Steel.
That’s what you get for “thinking’
Just like when you knew for a fact that you had more sex than me, you also thought you knew more about my life than me.
You need to see a shrink. Stop acting as if you know things only myself or God could know.
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JMJ;
“. That’s why I made the allusion to that ridiculous, silly, comic-bookish assertion that unions were somehow communistic,
You said so yourself that communism(USSR) was destined to fail.
Just like the unions are failing now.
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JMJ;
“That’s nasty. You think Americans are subpar workers, Micky? You think they make crappy products? You really hate American workers, huh? The reason unions are dying is because of a concerted effort to squash them from the government in cahoots with the corporate sector.”
Listen ! You better get your act together.
You are on record as constantly calling the majority of Americans stupid.
How can you have workers who are not subpar if most of them are idiots ?
And the corporate sector has the right and ability to compete in a sense to squash inferior products.
All of a sudden now all of America is so great when it needs to be to make your point. But the rest of the time they’re all idiots.
==================================================================
JMJ
“That’s because they are designed better. Most of them are assembled here by the very same American workers that you think are no goodniks, and the parts the Japanese use come from better sources than the cheap labor junk the American companies use. It’s yet another example of corporate cannibalism of the American economy.
Who do you think designs them ?
“than the cheap labor junk the American companies use.
Would those be the ones putting out a crappy product due to cheap labor junk?
Shot yourself in the foot that time huh?
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JMJ;
“Because cheap labor con “free trade” with that communist country is what has pu the final nail in the coffen our manufacturing sector. ‘
If it weren’t for bloated union budgets and wages we wouldnt of had to go there.
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JMJ;
“LOL!!!! ROTFLMAO!!!! Yeah, right. And markets always behave rationally, right? LOL!!! OMG, that was funny!!!
Oh Micky, I wish that were true.
You obviously know nothing about human resources. This is made evident by your simplistic illusion that you can have 100% perfect staffing.
I’ve hired at least a 1000 people in my life.
And have been consulted to trouble shoot for management in newly opened restaurants.
So put your false hubris on a plate and get a clothes pin for your nose and start eating.
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JMJ;
“Again, you don’t understand unions. You can do anything you want, with or without the unions, as long as you’re lucky and work hard.”
There you go again. Just because I see unions differently doesnt mean I dont understand them. You may see a toothless hooker in a different way than I do.
Why dont you help unionize them ?
Oh ! I’m sorry , those are called pimps.
But there’s really no difference between them and unions.
Pay up bitch and I’ll give you a job.
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JMJ;
“Quality employers hire quality employees. That is the general rule. If you work for morons, then you probably will work with morons. I always found it was better to work for smart people.’
I find it hard to believe that anyone with any brains would want to work with you.
Since you think you are smarter than anyone of them.
‘==================================================================
JMJ;
“LOL!!! I worked at the finest restaurant in town when I was a kid. Again, you said you worked with lazy bums, so that tells me that your employer isn’t very good at making quality hires.
A kid ? I’m sure that you held a very lofty position full of responsibilities such as making sure every single hire was just as good as the other.
Or maybe costing out a new menu for an expansion project.
Quality houses don’t hire kids. Serving alcohol has a lot to do with it. Which means you had to of been in the back washing dishes.
Quality hires will make it past a probation period anywhere from 30 to 90 days.
And then there’s the one main reason I spoke of that contributed to depletion in work ethic. That was the tip pooling. Service and quality went to crap only after the wealth redistribution started. People were hiding there tips so they would not have too share them. People were fighting in the parking lot and nobody trusted anyone.
micky;
‘A good employee is simply paid better because he is worth more.”
JMJ;
“LOL!!!! ROTFLMAO!!!! Yeah, right. And markets always behave rationally, right? LOL!!! OMG, that was funny!!!’
Si I guess you made my point for me.
If your staff is as unpredictable as the market , then it doesnt matter if you do the best hiring in the world , right jersey?
You said;
“I guess his employer just isn’t very good at hiring quality labor. I’d get another job, if I were him.”
nd also;
““Quality employers hire quality employees. That is the general rule. If you work for morons, then you probably will work with morons’
But wait ! You just said that the help is as unpredictable as the market.
I said that an employee will paid more if hes worth more and you rolled on the floor and laughed. but you previously just said this;
“and I’ve seen people get raises and promotions for superior productivity.’
Man, talk about hypocrite. Ontop of that you cant even get your positions straight
I can manage a staff of fifity.With all this enlightment I doubt you could manage a circle jerk, never mind the market.
Look, without unions – and the GI Bill, and the FDR to Eisenhower public works, and FHA, an the regulatory state from FDR to Nixon, and public education and hospitals, and student loans and grants – there’s have been no great rise of the missle class post WWII, let alone the over progress of the country since. If we had kept going the Hoover way, we’d never have risen to be the power we are today. That’s all that matters, no matter what you guys say. And considering the recent utter failure of GOP conservative rule to improve the state of the nation, one would think you guys should get all that through your heads by now.
JMJ
You want us to get your stuff through our heads ?
The missle class? Are those like aeronautical suicide bombers ?
No matter what we say ?
But what you say is gospel ?
“SILENCE !!!! THERE IS NO DEBATE !!!!!
Uniond were good in kick starting things after the depression. But to rely on them constanly has produced standards of mediocrity.
We are way past the point where we need a uniform structure such as unions. To keep wallowing in the use of organized labor is only going to cause us to regress.
Such as is the case and reason unions are collapsing left and right. The market has flourished to the point that they are not necessary.
And knock off the “utter failure” crap already.
Clinton had a nice surplus and Bushs tax relief after 911 show that our market has been quite healthy enough in the last 16 years to render your view as nothing but your plain hatred for Bush.
You sound like your doing some 12 oz. curls there buddy.
Wanna try again tommorrow ? :-)
“But to rely on them constanly has produced standards of mediocrity.”
They are less than 8% of the private workforce, Misky. Where the heck do you get “constantly” from?
“Such as is the case and reason unions are collapsing left and right.”
No, unions have collapsed because of the sleazy, cheap labor, pro illegal immigration, “free trade,” “moderate” to rightwing pols and their corporate masters.
And if you think America is better off with Bush and his utterly failed policies, then you truly are suffering sever cognitive dissonance. I can’t think of anything about America that is any better today for Bush and the cons – and their weak kneed Dem allies – than the wealth of a tiny minority of the already very wealthy. You are a pawn of their’s. Say hi to Paris Hilton for me. I’m sure she’ll show you some appreciation for the great work you have done for her.
JMJ
The standards are their own within that 8%.
All the union houses I’ve worked cannot even begin to compete with the quality in the private sector. No matter how well staffed when you get into massive production lines (which is where unions thrive) the product starts loosing the attention it deserves.
Last I checked the left was the party of “pro illegal immigration”
Or as harry Reid says “undocumented Americans”
But that is not really the reason they are collapsing. People dont want to pay ridiculous prices for garbage made by overpaid complacent bums.
Ahhh the ole “cognitave dissonance” again.
i dont see what holding two thoughts at one time has to do with anything. It only takes one train of thought to follow you.
And the ever humbling Paris hilton joke.
get some new material Jersey.
JMJ;
“I can’t think of anything about America that is any better today for Bush and the cons ‘.
Thats because your a liberal uh..progressive lideral. No that was libertarian. Or was it a quasi semi kinda dont know somwhere along the lines of maybe making my mind up one day who and what I am hopefully gonna be figured out some day.
I got to meet Al and Hallowed !
Really, name me what is better today for Bush and the past 7 years, 6 of which were almost completely controlled by the GOP, governmentally anyway? Anything. Is the Middle East, or any other foreign region, better? Where has there been any significant progress? Education? Poverty? Crime? Social ills? All those things are flat or a little worse. Is the dollar better? Wages versus inflation? Real estate? Healthcare? R&D? Really, is anything any better thanks to your GOP guys?
“Last I checked the left was the party of “pro illegal immigration”
Really? Who on the Left (not Hillary, who is not on the left), really on the Left, is pro-illegal immigration? Labor isn’t. Progressives aren’t. Greenies and Yellow dogs aren’t. Liberals aren’t. Of course, we’re not for just letting them come in and then abusing them for the pleasure of the cheap labor cons, but I’ll leave that to your bunch.
“People dont want to pay ridiculous prices for garbage made by overpaid complacent bums.”
You obviouskly just hate your fellow Americans and the American worker, and it’s p’ing me off. So I’m dropping out of this cheap labor con fest.
JMJ
It looks like you gave up on one arguement and you just want start another.
Unfortunatly my dear friend you’ve run out of escape routes because I.ve had the “what has Bush done” debate with you before.
Our countrys private sector puts out better quality a**hole! I never said anything about hating anyone. Lasyt I checked 92 %of our work force was the private sector. The other 8% is the unions you mentioned.
As far as Bush goes , here I did some googling all on my own jersey.
This is just one year.
Fact Sheet: President Bush’s Accomplishments in 2005
A Week Of Accomplishments
The President Will Work With Congress To Complete Reauthorization Of The Patriot Act. The Patriot Act is a key part of America’s efforts to combat terrorism and protect the American people. The Patriot Act has enhanced information sharing between law enforcement and intelligence personnel and has provided critical tools to find and catch terrorists – tools that have been used for years to investigate other crimes such as organized crime and drug dealing. The President looks forward to continuing to work with Congress on reauthorization.
Congress Took Action To Reduce Government Spending. Both the House and Senate made a fiscally responsible vote to cut spending by $39.7 billion and keep the government on track to cut the deficit in half by 2009. This will also be the first time in nearly a decade that Congress has reduced entitlement spending. This demonstrates a strong commitment to funding the Nation’s priorities while ensuring that taxpayer money is spent wisely.
President Bush Signed The “Gulf Opportunity Zone Act Of 2005.” To further spur economic growth, the President proposed – and Congress passed – provisions for a Gulf Opportunity Zone, with tax relief and loans to be provided to businesses and entrepreneurs in Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama.
President Bush Signed The “Stem Cell Therapeutic And Research Act Of 2005.” This legislation creates a new Federal program to collect and store cord blood and expands the current bone marrow registry program to also include cord blood.
President Bush Is Committed To Winning The War On Terror
The United States Is Advancing Democracy Around The World. To win the War on Terror, the United States is supporting the growth of democratic movements and institutions that offer an alternative to the hatred and fear espoused by the terrorists. Millions turned out to vote in Iraq and Afghanistan after decades of tyranny, and Afghanistan inaugurated its new freely and fairly elected legislature just this past week. This year, the world has witnessed democratic revolutions in Georgia, Lebanon, Ukraine, and Kyrgyzstan. By advancing the cause of liberty and freedom, America is giving millions an alternative to intolerance and violence and ensuring security for future generations.
The United States Is Pursuing A Comprehensive Strategy For Victory In Iraq. To strengthen security, the Coalition and Iraqi security forces are clearing out areas controlled by the enemy, working with Iraqi forces to hold that territory, and following up with targeted reconstruction to help Iraqis rebuild their lives. America is helping Iraqis build inclusive democratic institutions that protect all Iraqis, engage those who can be persuaded to join the new Iraq and marginalize those who never will. The Coalition is working with Iraqis to help them build capable and effective Iraqi security forces so that Iraqis can secure their own country. Economically, America is helping the Iraqis restore infrastructure, reform their economy, and build the economic framework that will give all Iraqis a stake in a free and peaceful Iraq.
Iraq Has Made Tremendous Political Progress. In just over two-and-a-half years, Iraqis have gone from living under a brutal tyrant to liberation, free elections, and a democratic constitution. Just this past week, over 10 million Iraqis voted to elect the only constitutional democratic government in the Arab world. The Iraqi people are sending a message they will not be intimidated and will determine their own destiny. By helping Iraqis build their democracy, the United States will gain an ally in the War on Terror, inspire reformers across the Middle East, and make the American people more secure.
America Is Fighting Terrorism And Safeguarding The Homeland. Defeating a broad and adaptive terrorist network requires patience, constant pressure, and strong allies. Working with these partners, the United States is disrupting conspiracies to attack Americans, destroying the terrorists’ ability to wage war, and stopping proliferation of weapons of mass destruction (WMD). To defend the homeland, the Administration is working to reform the intelligence services and the FBI, training more first responders, and disrupting terrorist cells in our midst with tools like the Patriot Act. The United States is hunting down the terrorists in the shadows before they can attack this country again.
The President Nominated The First Director Of National Intelligence (DNI). President Bush signed into law the landmark Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act, which overhauls the intelligence community, mandating a range of reforms and centralizing in one office key authorities. The DNI serves as President Bush’s principal intelligence advisor and the leader of the Intelligence Community. The first DNI, Ambassador John Negroponte, was confirmed by the Senate and sworn in this past April.
President Bush Released The National Strategy For Pandemic Influenza. The President outlined the Nation’s strategy to detect outbreaks, expand domestic vaccine production capacity, stockpile treatments, prepare to respond to a pandemic, and ensure the health and safety of all Americans. The Administration’s ongoing implementation of the National Strategy will ensure a coordinated and effective Federal response and close cooperation with international partners and state, local, and tribal governments.
President Bush Is Combating The Spread Of WMD. The President has made clear that WMD in the hands of terrorists represents a grave threat, and he has taken aggressive steps on multiple fronts to limit access to – and prevent the use of – WMD materials or weapons by terrorists. The Administration has established the Global Threat Reduction Initiative, led efforts at the United Nations to adopts UNSCR 1540, freeze assets of WMD proliferators, established the Domestic Nuclear Detection Office, worked with overseas partners to combat proliferation, and developed a comprehensive plan with Russia to secure all nuclear material in Russia two years ahead of schedule.
President Bush Proposed A Comprehensive Immigration Reform Plan To Enhance America’s Homeland Security. The President has outlined efforts to secure the border, prevent illegal crossings, and strengthen enforcement of immigration laws. The President also proposes to take pressure off the border by creating a Temporary Worker Program that meets the economy’s demands while rejecting amnesty for those who break America’s laws.
President Bush Is Advancing His Agenda To Maintain A Strong And Vibrant Economy
The Economy Is Growing And Creating Jobs. Since May 2003, the economy has added nearly 4.5 million new jobs. The unemployment rate is down to 5 percent – lower than the average for the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s. Last quarter, the economy grew at 4.1 percent and has been growing steadily for more than two years. More Americans now own their homes, and minority home ownership is near record highs. Real disposable income is up, and consumers are confident. New orders for durable goods have risen sharply, and shipments of manufactured goods are up. Over the past four-and-a-half years, productivity has grown at its fastest rate since the 1960s, and small businesses are thriving.
Cutting The Deficit. Each year the President has been in office, the rate of growth of non-security discretionary spending has been cut.
President Bush Calls On Congress To Restrain Spending. Last February, the President submitted the most disciplined budget proposal since Ronald Reagan was in the White House. Congress has cut non-security discretionary spending and mandatory spending. The President’s plan proposed to terminate or reduce more than 150 government programs, and Congress is poised to deliver savings on about 90 of these proposals.
We Remain On Track To Cut The Budget Deficit In Half By 2009. By continuing spending restraint and pro-growth economic policies, we will stay on track to meet the President’s goal of cutting the deficit in half by 2009
President Bush Has Called On Congress To Make Tax Relief Permanent. The President’s tax relief, which is helping to grow the economy, will expire unless Congress acts. To maintain growth, there has to be certainty in the tax code, workers need to keep more of their paychecks, and Congress needs to make the tax cuts permanent.
President Bush Signed Into Law The First National Energy Plan In More Than A Decade. The energy bill makes an unprecedented commitment to energy conservation and efficiency by promoting smarter technology; helps make cleaner and more productive use of our existing energy resources; and helps diversify energy supply by promoting alternative and renewable energy sources. The bill also helps promote needed investment in energy infrastructure. This is a good first step toward a more affordable and reliable supply of energy for American consumers.
President Bush Signed Into Law The Highway Bill. The highway bill will provide funding and flexibility for states to modernize America’s network of roads, bridges, and mass transit systems, without raising gas taxes. With this multi-year funding bill in place, vital new transportation projects will proceed, which will make driving safer, ease congestion, and ensure that the Nation’s transportation system keeps pace with our rapidly expanding economy.
President Bush Signed The Central America And Dominican Republic Free Trade Agreement (CAFTA-DR) To Level The Playing Field For U.S. Workers And Open New Markets For American Goods. CAFTA-DR immediately eliminates tariffs on nearly 80 percent of U.S. exports to participating nations and is expected to generate billions of dollars in increased sales of U.S. goods and farm exports. This will help keep jobs in the United States and make American workers better able to compete. Also, with passage of CAFTA-DR, the United States supports stability and prosperity in the region, which will make Americans safer here at home.
The President Challenged The International Community To Help Developing Nations Through Free Trade. The international community must work together in the Doha negotiations to eliminate agricultural subsidies that distort trade and stunt development and also to eliminate tariffs and other barriers to open markets for farmers around the world. The United States has proposed to eliminate all trade-distorting tariffs, subsidies, and other barriers to the free flow of goods and services as other nations do the same. This is key to overcoming poverty in the world’s poorest nations – and to promoting prosperity and opportunity for all nations.
The President’s Initiatives Are Spreading Opportunity To Developing Nations. The President has encouraged developing countries to take primary responsibility and ownership for their own development through good governance, the rule of law, and sound economic policies, as well as by cultivating domestic and private resources in development. He has supported these goals through bold new programs, including the Millennium Challenge Account, which rewards developing countries that fight corruption and implement sound policies; the President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief, a five-year, $15-billion effort that is providing hope throughout the developing world; and multilateral debt relief, which will provide 100-percent debt cancellation and a path towards the private capital markets for qualifying heavily indebted poor countries.
President Bush Nominated Ben Bernanke To Serve As Chairman Of The Federal Reserve Board Of Governors. Dr. Bernanke is a leading monetary policy expert, respected for his work as Chairman of the President’s Council of Economic Advisers, as a former Governor of the Federal Reserve, and as a Professor of Economics and Public Affairs at Princeton University. His enormous credibility will give confidence to the financial markets and win him the respect of economists and investors alike.
The President Nominated Well-Qualified Candidates To The U.S. Supreme Court
The President Nominated, And The Senate, Confirmed Chief Justice John Roberts. During his confirmation hearings, members of the Senate and the American people saw a nominee of exceptional integrity, deep humility, uncommon talent, experience, and character. Americans are confident that as the 17th Chief Justice of the United States, John Roberts will be prudent in exercising judicial power, firm in defending judicial independence, and a faithful guardian of the Constitution.
President Bush Nominated Judge Samuel Alito To Serve As Associate Justice Of The U.S. Supreme Court. Judge Alito has the keen intellect, impartiality, temperament, sound legal judgment, and integrity necessary to serve on the Supreme Court. As a Federal judge, he has a record of strictly interpreting the law. He has more judicial experience than any Supreme Court nominee in the past 70 years. The President knows the Senate will recognize Judge Alito’s mastery of the law, deep commitment to justice and equality, great personal character, and he urges the Senate confirm him by January 20 to be the next Associate Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court.
President Bush Has Worked With Congress To Pass Legislation Important To The American People
President Bush Signed The Patient Safety And Quality Improvement Act Of 2005. President Bush signed into law a patient safety bill to improve health care by reducing medical errors. It also establishes a voluntary system to report health care errors. By giving patient safety organizations the ability to analyze past medical mistakes, this legislation will help prevent future mistakes and will improve the quality of care and lower costs for patients nationwide.
The President Signed Class Action Reform To Curb Lawsuit Abuse. The class action reform signed into law last February by President Bush will help reduce lawsuit abuse in our country and ease the burden of needless litigation on every American worker, business, and family. In particular, it helps prevent abusive class action lawsuits that result in large fees for lawyers and minimal awards for injured parties. President Bush is urging Congress to pass other legal reform measures, including medical liability and asbestos litigation reforms.
President Bush Signed Bankruptcy Reform Legislation That Makes The System Fairer For Creditors And Debtors. Under this law, Americans who have the ability to pay will be required to pay back at least part of their debts. This practical reform will help ensure debtors make a good-faith effort to repay as much as they can afford. This will make credit more affordable because when bankruptcy is less common, credit can be extended to more people at better rates.
No Child Left Behind (NCLB) Is Working. As a result of NCLB, standards are higher, national test scores are on the rise, and minority students have made progress toward closing the achievement gap. On this year’s National Assessment of Educational Progress, fourth-grade reading scores were six points higher than in 2000, and fourth- and eighth-grade math scores were the highest in the test’s history. Between 2000 and 2005, scores for African-American students for fourth-grade reading and math and eighth-grade math have increased – and the gap between white and African-American students in those categories has decreased during that time.
President Bush’s New Medicare Coverage Will Ensure That Everyone On Medicare Has Better Choices. The new Medicare law provides preventative care, prescription drug coverage for the first time, and more choices. In November, seniors began enrolling for the new prescription drug benefit that takes effect on January 1, 2006. All Medicare drug plans offer more and better choices and help low-income beneficiaries.
Congress Is Acting To Extend Welfare Reform. Both the Senate and House have agreed to extend provisions of welfare reform set to expire at the end of December and strengthen work requirements for welfare recipients.
The President Is Acting To Help The Gulf Coast Recover From Natural Disaster
The President And Congress Have Acted To Provide Resources For Hurricane Recovery. Since Hurricane Katrina struck, more than $70 billion has been made available for Gulf hurricane recovery efforts through the FEMA Disaster Relief Fund, low-interest loans to local governments, flood insurance, and funding relief from cost-share requirements.
President Bush Is Working To Make The New Orleans Levee System Better And Stronger. The President is focused on the safety and security of the citizens of New Orleans and is committed to providing the resources necessary for them to return home and rebuild their lives. The additional levee protections the Administration is proposing – including armoring, closing the three interior canals, and installing state-of-the-art pump stations – will address the main causes of the catastrophic flooding during Hurricane Katrina.
The Administration Is Helping Hurricane Evacuees Find Housing. FEMA has provided rental assistance to more than 650,000 households to date and remains committed to providing families with the tools they need to become self-sufficient again. FEMA continues to reach out to those who have not yet found longer-term housing. For these evacuees, FEMA will continue payment for hotel rooms through January 7, 2006, or longer.
The Government Is Providing Education Assistance To States And Schools. The Department of Education is working with States and schools in the region and elsewhere to ensure a minimum of disruption for the hundreds of thousands of students affected by Hurricane Katrina. The President has proposed aid to affected states and to school districts taking in evacuated students, payments to States to enable displaced children to enroll in schools of their choice, and assistance to post-secondary institutions, students, and borrowers.
The Federal Government Is Helping The States Remove Debris. Nearly 56 million cubic yards of debris have been removed in AL, TX, MS, and LA. FEMA reimbursed the states at 100 percent for this expense for a month or longer in Alabama and Texas. This week, the President extended full Federal reimbursement for Louisiana until June 30, 2006, and for Mississippi until March 15, 2006.
The Federal Government Acted Aggressively To Ensure Energy Supply. Following the hurricanes, President Bush directed all Federal agencies to minimize possible shocks to the economy. The Department of Energy made crude oil available from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, ensuring continuity of energy supplies. The International Energy Agency agreed to release 60 million barrels of oil and gasoline. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff temporarily waived the Jones Act, allowing foreign-flagged ships to transport fuel between U.S. ports and import oil from Europe. The Environmental Protection Agency, Department of the Treasury, and Department of Transportation eased regulatory rules to increase flexibility and availability of fuel supplies by waiving winter/summer blend requirements and rules for dyed diesel fuel. The Administration worked with private firms to restore the Gulf Coast’s energy infrastructure. These actions have ensured a continuity of energy supplies to drivers, families, consumers, and small businesses.
The President Called On Americans To Help Those In The Gulf Coast Region. USA Freedom Corps created a nationwide information clearinghouse allowing individuals, businesses, schools, groups, and families to connect with volunteer opportunities to help families in the Gulf Coat. To date, American companies and individuals have combined to donate nearly $2.9 billion for relief, recovery, and reconstruction. Former Presidents Bush and Clinton have led a private fundraising effort that has already received pledges of more than $100 million to aid the Gulf Coast’s recovery. Americans who want to contribute or volunteer can in the Gulf Coast can find more information at http://www.usafreedomcorps.gov .
I dont hate Americans like you do. I dont call them idiots and stupid and how the majority are all asses as you say. Any shmuck know that the left is the party of entitlements. Even for illegals and other countries you want redistribute our countries wealth. That is hate for America in action.
I heard you on the radio and your a self absorbed pompous know it all bag of hot air with nothing ever to substantiate most of the crap you say.
You just like to sound big and as if you are the final authority on reality and anything else in peoples lives that you know absolutley nothing about.
You’re out of points and any kind of worthy presentations that could convince anyone of anything and so you’re getting emotional and boiling it down again to telling everyone that they are just gonna have to take your word for it.
Its sad
The tax rate is better since Bush took office. Social Security would be better if it wasn’t for the obstructionists in Congress. The judiciary would be even better also.