Monday, January 21st, 2008, is Martin Luther King Jr. Day. The financial markets are closed, and I have the day off from work. Whatever the morning rituals are, I missed them, given that days off involve sleeping until noon.
Normally I would say that MLK Day does not have any special meaning for me. Before the politically correct crowd tries to play the race card, I do not know many non-Jews that even know who the Lubavitche Rebbe Menachem Schneerson was. Martin Luther King Jr. was a hero to many. To me he was a decent man who made great speeches and tried to improve society. Yet his death occurred before I was born, so I do not feel any emotional pull from his existence.
Yet this MLK Day is different. MLK Day is always on a Monday in January, but this year it is specifically on January 21st. This is significant to me because on Monday, January 21st, 1985, 23 years ago today, I had my Bar Mitzvah.
A Bar Mitzvah is a very sacred ritual in Jewish culture. Shortly after a boy’s 13th birthday, this rite of passage is when a boy becomes a man.
Becoming a man is a relative term. I was not allowed to stay up later, and I certainly was not allowed to smoke, drink alcohol, or curse in my home. On the flip side, I did not have to worry about paying bills or holding an actual job outside of school. The only adult task I had was the painful, arduous process of writing thank you notes to all the people that gave me Bar Mitzvah presents, mostly in the form of cash that I never got to see. My parents held it until college, when I had all the spending money I needed.
So much has changed in the last 23 years since I had my sacred ritual on Dr. King’s sacred day. While so many things have changed for the better, from internet communication to advances in medicine, race relations remain a charged issue. Relations between blacks and Jews could be significantly better.
One thing that many of Dr. King’s supporters have forgotten is that Dr. King wanted a better society for all people. Dr. King was not a racist or an antisemite. He had a deep respect for Jewish people, and he believed in the goodness of non-Jewish white people as well. He did not have rose colored glasses. He knew racism existed. Yet he also knew that the silent majority consisted of good people.
I do not see this optimism in the black leadership of today. I see racism and antisemitism, led by race hustlers that benefit from conflict. Some would say that without struggle, there is no progress. This is reasonable. What is not reasonable is to argue that the struggle has been pointless, and that there has been no progress at all.
For those who see no progress, they have ignored one biracial man, one woman, one latino, and one Mormon all being considered for the highest office in the land, the President of the United States. These people were children once, and as adults, Dr. King’s dream truly is being advanced. This is our society entering adulthood as well.
Being a man is not about a simple ritual. It is about making hard choices that adults have to make every day. It is about taking personal responsibility for actions, without blaming other races and genders for internal problems. It is about refusing to accept failure as institutional.
It can start with small decisions. As a teenager, I did not drink, smoke, or do drugs. Today I am a productive adult in society, and I still do not smoke, drink or do drugs. I do not have out of wedlock children, which is one of the leading causes of our decaying moral society. 1/4 of white children are born out of wedlock, and a staggering 2/3 of black children are born to unmarried parents. This is not the fault of racism. It is simply moral failure.
Martin Luther King Jr was a flawed man. He ran around with women outisde of his marriage to Coretta Scott King. Yet he still managed to be a good father, and his children today are decent members of society.
There are so many pitfalls in society today, and to simply believe that better days ahead may seem simplistic. However, if one does not believe that better days are ahead, why go on? Dr. King became a leader at a time in history where an entire race was barely more than 3/5 of a human being. Yet while there is still room to go, there has been so much improvement, and to deny this is to deny reality.
Racism and antisemitism are despised by most people. The days of publicly humiliating races and creeds in office buildings are long gone. Yet even though things are so much better, those that benefit from spreading poison speak loudly.
The day of my Bar Mitzvah, I had a black girlfriend. She was also Jewish, the adopted girl of white parents. We were both too young to understand the significance of an interracial relationship, but why is becoming aware always a positive thing? When I look back, I realized that it was not race that broke us up. We were kids, and she broke it off because we lived 45 minutes apart and could not see each other.
We start in such a hurry to grow up, and then we spend our adult years trying to slow the clock as it rapidly advances. When all is said and done, very few of us ever make a difference in this world. We enter with nothing, we leave with nothing, and there is virtually no evidence that we ever existed. Some may find this depressing, but it is reality.
Yet to the small circle of people who know us, we matter greatly.
If there is anything we can and should take away from MLK Day, it is that dreams are possible. Miracles happen every day. Two years after Dr. King was assassinated, the United States put a man on the moon.
On January 21st, 1985, I was young enough to believe that all people were capable of loving and helping each other. One year later Ronald Reagan and Mikhail Gorbachev shook hands.
On January 21st, 2008, I am old enough to believe that all people are capable of loving and helping each other. At the very least we need to tolerate each other. We have to. We are stuck with each other. So we can either spend our lives attending protest marches and rioting in the streets, or we can reach out and help our neighbor.
One year from now, George W. Bush will no longer be President. This is a joyous thought for some, a saddening thought for others. One year from now, when Martin Luther King Jr. Day rolls around, a new leader will have been just sworn in.
That leader will have much work to do. It will require rolling up sleeves, but it will also require a heavy dose of optimism. Somewhere out there is a 13 year old boy about to have his Bar Mitzvah. He will be 36 one day, and when he looks back on his journey, it will all have been a waste unless life is better in the future then it is now.
I believe this boy will be ok. Things turned out fine for me, and I will help this boy along. So will members of other communities, because he will be playing with their children, and those kids will be too young and naive to hate, unless their parents teach them badly.
Dr. King wanted love and peace to be spread. He believed that we are all God’s children. The best thing we can do to honor his memory is buy a much bigger dinner table, and make sure that good people of all races and creeds are invited over to break bread.
Let us all say, in a thunderous voice, “Amen.”
eric
AMEN !!!
But still, these celebrations fail to do justice to King’s commitment to social justice, the complexity of his political convictions and the profound religious faith that enabled him to put up with racism, as well as being hounded by the FBI. Only when people understand the full scope of King’s vision of equality can they appreciate his true legacy.
We could learn a lot by realizing that King did not want minorities to play the sympathy card. This lesson would would be well advised today.
I agree: AMEN!
Those who invoke King while either playing the sympathy card, or attempting to distance the Black community from the rest of society, do Dr. King a great disservice. He would turn over in his grave at some of the things said by Reverend Jackson and others of his ilk!
Happy Bar Mitzvah anniversary, Eric! :)
“1/4 of white children are born out of wedlock, and a staggering 2/3 of black children are born to unmarried parents. This is not the fault of racism. It is simply moral failure.”
Right. Black people are more prone to moral failure than whites – that’s what that sounded like. Not only did the very numbers you presented bely your point, but man ‘o man did that come off wrong!
“Miracles happen every day.
There are no such things as miracles. Everything happens for a reason. That is basic physical law.
Otherwise, Amen.
JMJ
This is what I don’t get:
From the 1680’s until the culmination Civil War most African Americans were enslaved. There were up to 4 million slaves in America at any given time toward the end of that terrible institution.
From the end of the Civil War until the 1960’s, African were segregated, isloated, abused, disenfranchised, and generally looked upon as inferior human beings, if human beings at all.
To this day, African Americans are abused by a legal system that punishes them more for the same crimes committed by whites. And other forms of racism exist today.
And yet somehow, some way, for some reason, the legacy of all that is lost on conservatives. They see no reason believe that the African Americans still suffer, culturally, economically, politically from that legacy. They see no generational damage that would explain the social ills African Americans suffer today. They see no problem with a legal system that disproportionately punishes African Americans.
Amazing.
JMJ
JMJ;
“Right. Black people are more prone to moral failure than whites – that’s what that sounded like.’
The author said no such thing. Its all how one percieves things.
Some would argue that being discriminated against will drive a mans morals to a lower level.
Some will automatically think it was meant to compare white morality to black morality.
Even though the author clearly states he believes it is not a result of racism.
The question should be, why is this seemingly the moral standard that produces these results ?
Is it cultural ? Is it socially acceptable in black circles ? Is it due to an entitlement mindset that wants to get paid for having babies.
Instead of the legacy being lost on just conservatives alone.
I think its a result of guilty white liberals also
I think liberal whites embraced guilt for two reasons: to avoid being seen as racists and to embrace a vantage point where they could mete out benefits to disadvantaged blacks through programs such as affirmative action. I believe blacks made a deal with the devil by exchanging responsibility and control over their destiny for handouts.
I see a shift, away from racial uplift and agency, where blacks assume responsibility for themselves, to a “race is destiny” mode.
I think there is a deficiency in black middle-class educational achievement, further raising questions about claims of lack of equal opportunity. And I would put this blame on any present administartion
“He would turn over in his grave at some of the things said by Reverend Jackson and others of his ilk!”
Gayle, you do know who Jesse Jackson is, right?
Who do you see in this picture? http://dhkim.net/ML-king-7.jpg
Micky,
With all do civility, there are probably a lot of different ways of preceiving a playing of a “sympathy card.” And certainly there is something to be said for sympathy, let alone empathy. I’m sure there were people who said King was playing the sympathy card back in his day.
One thing I’d love to debate about is the role of the Black Church in todays civil rights movement. I am of a mind that the church should no longer be at the forefront of their effort – that it has outlived it’s usefulness. I believe that African Americans should look to other institutions, sectors and philsophies for their advancement. Academia, their vibrant private sector, their military connections, etc.
JMJ
Micky,
““Right. Black people are more prone to moral failure than whites – that’s what that sounded like.’
The author said no such thing. Its all how one percieves things.”
Well, of course I know that. I was simply pointing out that what he said could certainly be taken the wrong (I assume) way: “1/4 of white children are born out of wedlock, and a staggering 2/3 of black children are born to unmarried parents. This is not the fault of racism. It is simply moral failure.”
Perception is the personally and culturally subjective view of reality.
“Is it due to an entitlement mindset that wants to get paid for having babies(?)”
If you are willing to consider or at least ask that question, then why can’t you consider the possibility that many social ills in the African American culture are products of the legacy of hundreds of years of slavery and abuse? how is it that a couple of generations of a little welfare can corrupt a culture, but hundreds of years of slavery and abuse can not?
“I think there is a deficiency in black middle-class educational achievement, further raising questions about claims of lack of equal opportunity. And I would put this blame on any present administartion”
That’s interesting, and possibly provocative. I’d love for you expand on that.
JMJ
“That’s interesting, and possibly provocative. I’d love for you expand on that.”
Education is the key to escaping the revolving door most blacks get trapped in.
But its a paradox. I thing all administrations have approached this the wrong way. Instead we ahave been throwing money at individuals and not the base of the problem. Job availabilty with a neighborhoods demographics need to be addressed.
Accessability to education, crappy schools get crappy money. How many blacks are eligible for college these days without entitlements due to poor GPA when exiting high school ?
“If you are willing to consider or at least ask that question, then why can’t you consider the possibility that many social ills in the African American culture are products of the legacy of hundreds of years of slavery and abuse?”
I considerd it. I believe the portion of the blacks were talking about have been convinced by the dispensing of benefits and so called leaders like Sharpton and Jackson oin a sublime way that they are doomed. As much as they appear to want to uplift blacks they continuesly without fail always mention how beaten down and unfortunate they are.
At some point you just have to throw all that crap up in the air and say hey ! I have every gift and right that every other man has and its time to move on. If the government wants to help, great ! But I will not sit around and wait or depend on it.
My mother and grandmother were beaten, abused tattoed and jailed. I was raised around two flaming basket cases. It reaked havoc on my life and others in my family, finacially and emotionally. I blame this only on the people in that generation that commited these crimes against them. Not every german I come across today.
We have all buried it and have moved on.
Do away with the black church as a forefront?
Its an idea, even coming from a christian.
But then you are dealing with that huge of a cultural aspect I seruously doubt that you would get black baptists to even consider such a thing. At least for the next few generations.
The Black church still plays a major role in civil rights movement today, but it has also had its share of issues, as well. During the 1960s and 70s black women correctly claimed that the civil rights movement was still dominated by and geared towards men. Many black religious leaders, such as James Cone, admitted the women were right and major changes followed.
It may very well be, however, that the black church has lost some of its dominant leadership position, and I think that is actually a good thing. The church became the loci of the civil rights movement because other avenues — legal, educational, vocational, and otherwise — were unavailable. As these other areas have opened up in the last half century, the church has stepped aside.
I find it hard to believe that things will be alright in the near term future. The malfeasance on Wall Street will very likely trigger a wave of populism that will unsettle us all. While the economic consequences are not yet pointing to a recession, the damage will be more political. That someone as hollow as Obama could get a victory in one state is bad enough.
I made a Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Day video that I think EVERYONE will enjoy. It’s really short, and should put a smile on your face.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=AtugYg42mmc
Happy Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Day everybody
David Spates
http://www.youtube.com/davidspates
Greg,
“The church became the loci of the civil rights movement because other avenues — legal, educational, vocational, and otherwise — were unavailable. As these other areas have opened up in the last half century, the church has stepped aside.”
The church has not stepped aside from what I’ve seen. It seems to me to remain the nuclei of the movement. When I hear eminent black voices like Tavis Smiley and Cornel West, two brilliant and otherwise secular thinkers, I hear religion, and it makes me wonder. Religion can be a fickle friend to logic.
The church itself may be an impediment. It may be that some of the philosophies of the church are getting in the way of progress.
JMJ
Micky,
“…I have every gift and right that every other man has…”
This, my friend, is our fundamental divergence. No one has all the gifts of any one else. Only a God would have that. We are all a little different. Not just by race, or class, or nationality, or religion, but in every little cell in our bodies we are all just a little different from one another. There are general patterns in those differences and we rate them and classify them, but we are all inherently subjective in how we go about it. We look at everyone else through ourselves. So the best way to approach the management of the multitudes is to somehow appreciate the differences to satisfy the needs.
JMJ
Kishore,
Obama is hollow? Okay. I’m not sold on him either. So, who’s not hollow?
JMJ
Some are so hollow you can see through them.
Micky;
“…I have every gift and right that every other man has…”
This was meant that in no other country does a black man have the opportunity that he has in America. That is the gift. I did not want to get into a organic discussion.
I have moved past the impact Nazis had on my family.
In Hawaii I am a minority. I have moved over it ,under it ,around it and succeeded. When at times I just wanted to move back to the mainland.
In the Rst,business I was subjected to preferences by German chefs and the feild being dominated by Asians and Filipinos. I came out on top.
In opening my metal refinishing business I was victim to a network of discrimination by Asian vendors and local bias. The quality of my work cut through all that
Eric, From the perspective of a world of divisiveness, and in a country divided more now than my 50+ years have seen, I applaud your recognizing that individuals, not groups of people, can and have made positive differences in this country. In a free nation, we are now guaranteed individual rights – not group rights as gays, Blacks, Hispanics, or yuppies – so we have individual responsibilities to work within our realm to make a difference.
I just read an article in the Atlanta Journal Constitution by Harvard Sitkoff titled “War, inequities would appall King”.
In his article, he discusses the “shameful government response to the victims of Hurricane Katrina” and “disproportionate number of black and brown Americans dying in Iraq” and “precious resources this conflict is STEALING from domestic needs…”. First, as a history major, Sitkoff should know the United States is comprised of fifty states, which are comprised of city and local governments – each with specific responsibilities and powers. The federal government is not responsible for these local, city, and state governments’ failures. However, once it was legal to step in, the federal government provided millions of dollars in aid, and the National Guard had to protect these “victims” from themselves.
Second, there is no “disproportionate number of black and brown Americans dying in Iraq” – statistics disprove this lie. Well, actually, there IS a disporportionate number of black and brown Amercians dying in Iraq – a disproportionately LOWER number… Finally, if this were a socialist country, an argument may be made that the government owes the people something. Martin Luther King was a great American, but his words should not be skewed to propogate lies. Another great American, JFK, said, “Ask not what your country can do for you, but…” Maybe we should start holding individuals accountable for their own welfare and not point the government toward the inefficiencies of socialism. I agree with Jersey that each person has different things to offer, and we must recognize and appreciate the differences – and I also concur with Mickey’s implication that individual quality of work is paramount to overcoming some of these differences.
Jersey’s earlier statement, “From the end of the Civil War until the 1960’s, African were segregated, isloated, abused, disenfranchised, and generally looked upon as inferior human beings, if human beings at all” tells a pretty good story about why the Shia and Kurds didn’t simply jump up and start governing within a couple years of gaining independence from a dictator who segregated, isolated, abused, disenfanchised, and generally looked down upon them as inferior human beings…
WOW!!
Everyone is missing the point. Eric is talking about mutual respect, and showing consideration for people around you. All people, not just the ones you like. This must be taught in the home, and the “home” must have good moral values in order to pass on good moral values. The moral household is being destroyed and thus will destroy us as a people. Teach your children well and help them to become good people. Good people raise good people. Therein is our legacy.
Tom Autry
Watonga, OK
Jersey, I did not mean to imply that the black church has completely stepped aside. It remains a major force in the civil rights movement. What I was saying was that in earlier years it was essentially the ONLY institutional force in the movement. Now that legal, educational, vocational and other avenues have opened up, the church has stepped aside to let them in, but the church remains a very powerful influence.
While I disagree with much of what AL said in his post, I do agree that the history of race relations in our own country could have told our current leaders a lot about the problems they would face in Iraq.
Yeah, Greg, I read that from Al too. That was interesting. I diagree with you just a little in that the black church is still a foundation of the movement, and even when you look at secular black institutions, you see a heavy influence from the church on the professors, teachers, professionals, etc… I really wish it would step farther aside as I think it is now holding them back. A perfect example would be that anti-gay black church rally in which Obama partook in SC. The movement is never going to get ahead by abusing other movements. But also, I believe that the church, and religion in general, continues the victim-mantality, continues the belief that matters are out of our hands and rather in the hands of some invisible God. This is an impediment to their progress.
It’s the same failing of the AA 12 Step method – by incessantly acknowledging helplessness, unending disease, and reliance on a non-existent “higher power,” the alcoholic (surrounded by other alcoholics) can never take his own fate in his own hands and put his alcoholism behind him. Neeedless to say, AA has a failure rate over 95%. Black America’s failure rate could be reduced by moving away from the church, IMHO.
Al, were you for the Iraq war?
Micky, you are not black. If you were, you can not hide being black. There are two main obstacles for African Americans – their own history and the fact that they in no way can hide who they are. You’re family may have escaped a mess in Germany (my wife’s paternal side had a colorful character who emigrated from the 1848 German revolution and was a friend of Wagner’s – he later became a town patriarch in Port Huron, Michigan) can not be compared with the history of African Americans. Whatever their situation, your ancesters were in all likelyhood literate, educated, skilled people. African Americans were kept illiterate, uneducated and unskilled for hundreds of years, and have really only had the opportunity to get ahead in the past 40 years or so. Many African American parents and grandparents harken back to the days of “the back of the bus,” and all that implies. It is a serious part of their culture. You can not just wipe it away.
And, as a relative matter, in comparison with the rest of any given society, I’m sure there are many other nations in which the black people can get farther up the ladder.
Tom,
The “moral household” was destroyed by free trade and conservative, laizzez faire government, rabid Al-style individualism, anti-intellectualism, divisive sectarianism, the all-working-parent household, materialism run amok, the breakdown of community in exurbia, ridiculous wealth disparity, and such. But the moral household surely is not the answer to this problem anyway. If you truly “honor thy father and thy mother” and they happen to be racists (and racism, slavery and other backwards traditions ubiquitously permeate the Bible) then you would be a moral racist. The “moral household” in it’s hay day in America was disgustingly racist among millions of families – probably most. I prefer ethics to morals.
JMJ
Jersey, I believe we had to take out Saddam if for no other reason than the “if this, then that” scenario. He violated UN resolutions and Presidential sanctions. If we hadn’t taken him out, we would have been a toothless, barking dog and sent a message that our word and will as a nation mean nothing. Of course, here is where the argument either begins or ends – because some will say we shouldn’t have threatened them – whatever they do is none of our business. Others will say they posed a serious threat to our security and it was necessary to take him out. Based on the evidence I have seen, and based on my experience in country, I think we had to go to war. This doesn’t mean I agree with how we prosecuted the war initially, but I believe strongly enough to have volunteered to lead a Military Transition Team for an Iraqi Brigade and will start pre-deployment training within the next couple weeks. The obvious answer to me is to establish a balance of power in the Middle East and empower the Iraqis to govern and protect themselves. It’s an ugly situation, but the world has gotten so small, I don’t believe an isolationist position is in our best interests.
There is deep-seated hatred among the Bloods and the Crips, but just because we haven’t figured out how to resolve their differences, I don’t think we should remove the police force from their areas of operation. Likewise, it was expensive and hard to incorporate African-Americans into mainstream society, and the challenges haven’t been “fixed” yet, but that by no means suggests we shouldn’t have tackled the problem. Again, this is my personal opinion – not the Army’s position, DoD, or anyone else’s. Grenada, Panama, and the first Gulf War spoiled us, or rather spoiled the populace by leading them to believe our wars are like movies that have problems that took decades to develop but can be solved in 120 minutes. I love early Louis L’Amour books, but after kicking bad guy butt and walking into the sunset with your beautiful sweetheart in hand, there’s the morning after… and man, THAT’s reality!!
p.s. To be fair, the aforementioned “wars” – Grenada, Panama, and the first Gulf War also spoiled our leaders!
Well, Al, I see where you’re coming from. I disagree with your conclusion about Iraq (and please man – be careful over there!) but wish you all the luck in the world. At least you back up what you believe, and that’s right up there in my book.
JMJ
JMJ;
“Micky, you are not black. If you were, you can not hide being black. There are two main obstacles for African Americans – their own history and the fact that they in no way can hide who they are. ”
I am white, and I cannot hide who I am either. The white occupation of these islands and consequent colonialization has left a lot of ill will towards whites here. We are called “Haoles” (white foreigners)
And you have no idea what its like to grow up being one of only three white boys in a school of 400. I would walk 4 miles to school everyday for 6 years just so I didn’t have to get on the bus. Every day after school I had to run out of my class to beat the gangs that wanted to kick my ass. My 3rd day in 7th grade I was attacked with a shaft having razor blades tied into it. And I got into at least one fight a week. The staff made up of locals didn’t care. One of the reasons I skipped high school was because I was simply going to be moving to another campus with the same people all over again. I transferred to another district and it was the same thing except half of my teachers would not give me the time of day.
The white man is blamed for everything here by racist elements. The Hawaiians feel we stole their sovereignty. And anyone with brown skin , Samoans , Fijians, Filipinos , Chinese, Japanese joined in on the discrimination and hatred with them. I have been fired for having an ethnic girlfriend, I have been passed over on positions due to my color. I have been attacked in public more times than I can count because all my girlfriends were darker than me.
Please don’t tell me because I am not black that I cant see what the problem is.
I can relate on a scale that most Americans cant even begin to comprehend.
JMJ;
“It is a serious part of their culture. You can not just wipe it away.”
Nothing like that should be wiped away. But it should be put aside already and not let be used as a tool for compensation. My mom did not go to high school. We came over here on a barge when I was three and lived on SW 60th avenue in Miami, not far from Sylvania heights elementary school in a garage. My father made 60 bucks a week. I had a sister with a heart condition and a basket case mother. We used to have black “tomatoe boys” come to the door and try to sell us tomatoes. Our landlord one time came running out of the house with his shot screaming “get of property you effing nigger!”
I asked my mom why he did that. She explained the whole thing to me and that even if a Martian knocked on the door we should invite him in for coffee. From then on I would meet the tomatoe boy out on the street and buy them there.
I am well aware of what has been going on with the black man in this country for decades now. I watched in the 60s as they were constantly being told they were deserving of everything because of the past, and its really getting quite old and predictable already
I find it appalling that you relate AA in the way you do.
JMJ;
“It’s the same failing of the AA 12 Step method – by incessantly acknowledging helplessness, unending disease, and reliance on a non-existent “higher power,” the alcoholic (surrounded by other alcoholics) can never take his own fate in his own hands and put his alcoholism behind him. Needless to say, AA has a failure rate over 95%. Black America’s failure rate could be reduced by moving away from the church, IMHO.”
We do not acknowledge helplessness, we acknowledge that we have a problem.
Whatever the success rate may be, it is still higher than any other program out there.
And the majority of programs go by the 12 step method.
To compare a black mans plite to having a disease such as alcoholism is ridiculous.
I see what you were getting at, but the comparison was just really bad.
Thanks Jersey. I just bought a laptop so I can try to stay in the loop when in country. Not sure yet what the connectivity will be, but other than a two week “meet and greet” with the unit I’ll be assigned to next month, my deployment is 3 months down the road…
Well, Micky, you have to admit that Hawaii is an odd example. It’s not much like the contiguous states. And though you may be a minority there, you are part of a dominant minority, not and underclassed and historically oppressed minority. And you certainly can’t blame Hawaiians for feeling the way they do. As I’m sure you know the sordid history of the islands and their relations with the West. The rest of what you said about black people I will not respond to in order to maintain civility.
As for AA – there are plenty of programs out there with higher success rates. Just google it. As for my comparison, I think it was right on. The victim-mantality is a cultural and personal killer. I though conservatives agreed with that. What happened?
Al, good luck man. I heard the administration has decided to begin troop reductions in July. If things go smoothly, just maybe we’ll see the rise of some kind of national unity and peace there. If it fails, then the whole thing may collapse. You and your contemporaries heading over there now are our last best hope to accomplish anything from our own position. Good luck.
JMJ
Jersey, I agree, the black still is a foundation of the movement. It’s success has allowed other institutions — labor, education, legal, et al. — to also become foundations. That’s what I was trying to say.
I do think you have a point in the way in which the church may be holding back the movement. For most of the history of African Americans in the US, the notion that perserverence in this life will be rewarded in the next life has been a dominant theme. Now that perserverence in the face of oppression is no longer needed as much, the church needs to continue to examine just what that means as a church.
Fortunately, there are some examples to draw from. The liberation theology movement in Latin America, which began in the 1960s with theologians such as Gustavo Gutierrez, the Boff brothers and others, has emphasized aggressive and affirmative steps in changing society rather than passivity in the face of oppression.
AL, best of luck to you over there. Although I get accused of being a hypocrite when I say this, I don’t support the war but I greatly admire you for acting on your convictions.
You also said, “Of course, here is where the argument either begins or ends – because some will say we shouldn’t have threatened them – whatever they do is none of our business. Others will say they posed a serious threat to our security and it was necessary to take him out.”
I have never seen the issue in such (pardon the pun given the original subject of eric’s post) black and white terms. I saw and continue to see it somewhere in between. Yes, what happened in Iraq was our business (if for no other reason than we were the ones who sold him the weapons that made him a threat to some), but I also never saw Saddam as a serious threat to our national security.
JMJ;
“As for AA – there are plenty of programs out there with higher success rates. Just google it. As for my comparison, I think it was right on. The victim-mantality is a cultural and personal killer. I though conservatives agreed with that. What happened?”
Jersey, I have passed the state exam as a substance abuse counselor. I just never applied, the pay sucks.
The 95% number that you pulled has been displayed improperly . The reason for the failure rate you cite is because those are the numbers of clients who do not complete the 12 steps or adhere to the program. Out of the 5% that do 2% fail. That gives the program a 60% success rate.
As far as the higher power thing goes. For agnostics and athiests the higher power can be in the form of your peers or a support group. It does not have to be a “non existant” entity. AA and the 12 steps are still the overall preferred program by most institutions. And most of the programs you google will operate on some variation of the 12 steps
Alcoholics are not victims of man, they are victims of a disease. One can be overcome, the other must always remain in your conscience.
And I cant seem to figure out what I said that was so horrible that you couldnt keep your tongue civil.
Does the black man need a champion in the corner besides himself ?
Are we uneccessarily banging the civility drum so as to appear to be the ever so humble and non racist allie to the black man ?
As far as Hawaii goes, its reverse discrimination. The locals run most of the government and give preference to locals in the form of grants, legislation , licensing and contracts. I am not a dominant minority, you are not speaking from first hand knowledge such as I am.
The rest of the local population is poor and of the entitlement mentallity, some of which I think is warranted.
My point is this. The hardships of any man are always overcome by him showing the product of himself as an individual. And showing that his product is just as good as anyone elses if not better. No movement or civilization has ever gotten anywhere riding on the coat tails of entitelment.
I never asked for a handout or cried to anyone when at times I felt like moving to a place where I thought the colors would be in my favor.
Bill Cosby got it right. Quitcher bitchin and move on.
I agree Greg. I actually know a guy that was active in the Liberation Movement (he was excommunicated over it!). I wish the Catholic Church would fully embrace it. It would certainly do Latin American and the US some good.
Micky, AA itself recognizes it’s failure rate at 95%.
As for Hawaii, I’m afraid we just aren’t on the same wavelength, so I’m going to let it be. As with your comments about African Americans, I find for the sake of civility here on Eric’s blog that I should probably best just shut up.
JMJ
Once again Mr McJones, you are out of your element.
It is the 95% that do not complete the program.
So as to imply that my statements deserve nothing other than an un civil response is simply saying the statement was so atrocious it cannot be addressed ?
Victim mentallity maybe ?
No Micky, it’s just that I’m having a hard time with your logic. I find it specious at best. So, as per Eric’s recent request, I find it best to disengage.
JMJ
Greg, I wasn’t trying to insult anyone’s intelligence with my simplistic either/or argument – but I’ve seen this topic dissected quite well over the few short weeks I’ve “attended” this blog, so I understand there are some sophisticated arguments and strong feelings on all sides. If it were easy, we wouldn’t have so many intelligent people foaming at the mouth!! Appreciate your support for my personal efforts, and regardless of where you stand politically, we are on the same side – and that’s what makes the arguments so productive.
JMj;
“Micky, AA itself recognizes it’s failure rate at 95%.
Clients who had 27 weeks or more of treatment in the first year had better outcomes 16 years later. After the first year, continued clinical treatment had little effect on the 16-year outcomes, whereas continued involvement in AA did help. Associations between treatment and long-term alcohol-related outcomes appeared to be due to participation in AA.
In a study of 1,774 low-income, substance-dependent men who had been enrolled in inpatient substance abuse treatment programs at ten Department of Veteran Affairs medical centers around the United States, five of the programs were based on twelve-step principles, but run by professional therapists, and five used cognitive-behavioral therapy. Over 45% of the men in twelve-step programs were abstinent one year after discharge, compared to 36% of those treated by cognitive-behavioral therapy.
A 1997 study assessed subjects during treatment, and at one and six-month follow-ups. Increased affiliation with AA produced better outcomes, greater motivation, and improved coping skills.
The largest benefit associated with AA attendance was increased abstinence, followed by reductions in alcohol-related consequences. A slight positive association was also found between AA attendance and increased purpose in life – the study found that AA attendance was associated with psychosocial improvement.
Micky, given that the 12 Step programs are quite prolific, and that alcohol and drug abuse rates remain rather constant. I think I can safely say that it’s not working very well. My theory is that considering addiction a chronic and incurable disease, surrendering yourself to any “higher power,” and surrounding yourself with fellow abusers, are not recipes for success.
JMJ
You do not surrender yourself to fellow abusers. You surrender to those with the answers. And they are at the meetings as well. Those are the one who no longer abuse. the point behing AA is that is it is your thinking that got you where you are at. So, a higher power can come in the form of taking directions from someone who has been their and done that.
Please, please dont even begin to tell me anything in this department. You will not be the authority and know it all on this one. I have sponsored and saved the lives of many nay sayers who all said the same thing as you are saying now.
In the black community there are role models that are still abusers of the system and ones that are not.
If it were not for 12 step programs there would simply be more dead alkys and junkies.
Do not argue with me on this, you will lose. I know far more about it than you ever will.
What you think is irrelevant. The facts dictate otherwise.
To compare the church as somehow helping black men battle a disease is ridiculous.
It is interesting that I can agree with both Mickey and Jersey simultaneously on one point – just as “alcohol and drug abuse rates remain rather constant” in spite of thousands of AA organizations, human death rates also remain rather constant as well, in spite of millions of Christians who pray for health and long lives…
This is simply one of the dichotomies of being what I consider a “manly man” and a man of faith – I have a pretty good grasp of what I think I should do as a person, provider, husband, father, et al, and I don’t like to submit to anyone or anything. However, given some of the challenges I faced as a husband and father, I’ve had to let go in order to accomplish what I tried to do when I thought I was in control. In my case, it was letting go through prayer to my higher power. In someone else’s case, that may seem foolish or an irrecoverable sign of weakness… (is that even a word?)…
In takes a ma to realize that it was his best thinking that got him in his rut.
And it takes a man to realize that the answer may be outside of himself in the form of any higher power.
That higher power can be another man who had a similar problem and can share how he overcame it.
A black man can use other black men who succeeded as a higher power in the form of example.
Al, if we did not have all the programs we have can you imagine what the numbers would be ?
Even without adhering to the 12 steps. One must first admit there is a problem before he will get and or recieve help.
The church plays a different role in the support of a black man today.
First. Being black is not a disease. As much as Jersey thinks I said something he cannot respond to civily. I find it rather demeaning to have the black mans situation somehow related to a disease. And that the church is convincing these black men and women are subjected to a disease rather than a man made problem beggining over 200 years ago.
AA does teach self reliance at certain points in certain areas.
But if the same doctrine of AA were applied to todays black men he would always have to keep in the back of his mind that he is what he is because of what happened centuries ago.
The injustices blacks have faced and continue to face can be eliminated in time.
Racism is a learned behavior, alcoholism is not.
I think the real truth about 12-step success rates is somewhere in the middle. Micky, you stating that there is a 60 percent success rate because of the 5% who complete the program only 2% of those fail, doesn’t make sense. If a person can’t complete the program that’s a failure.
But I’m not sure I would say that there’s a 95% failure rate, either, because it depends on what you define as “success.” I’m not expert, but I had a very good friend who served several terms as president of the National Council on Alcoholism, was medical director of a rehab clinic, and a recovering alcoholic himself. He told the story of one man who would get arrested for public drunkeness as much as 20-30 times a year. He went into the program and would fall off the wagon once a year or so and go on a binge and get arrested. He was a “failure” in that he couldn’t manage to ever get a one-year chip but was a “success” in that he cut his arrest record to only one a year.
When I was practicing law before going to seminary, I handled a number of DUIs and alcohol/drug-related matters, so (with the permission of everyone in the group) I went with my friend to a couple of AA meetings to see what it was all about. They kept talking about their “HP.” It took me a while to figure out that they weren’t talking about their Hewlett Packard printer :)
“If a person can’t complete the program that’s a failure.’
It makes all the sense in the world.
You have to complete the program in order to say it failed or worked.
Completing the program and failing is absolutly different from not completing anf failing. You cant fail something you didnt try.
Its like saying you failed a test because you didnt take it.
The true determination of effect is to apply it greg.
Success comes in many forms and manners as Greg mentions.
Some where nevr alcoholics to begin with. It was court mandated that they go. Later they dicscoverd that they were problem drinkers and not chronic in the sense of a physical addiction that dictates your every action.
Some are victims of cross addictions, some are just sick in the head.
Guys, The problem I have with the surrendering oneself to a higher power is simply that there is no higher power. You are surrendering yourself to a notion. It’s one thing to get through a tough time with prayer, it’s another to believe that your drug or alcohol addiction can be prayed away. For the vast majority of people, it simply won’t work. This is true of all addictions.
Micky, really, please try to go a few posts without egging me. I never compared race to disease. I was talking about the role of the church in dealing with social ills, and used the example of AA. I could have used almost any institution in which religion is involved. I was talking about the Victim Mantality and how religion plays into that. I’m pretty darn sure I had prior made that clear.
I just don’t see where the church is doing the movement that much good anymore. I hear a lot of talk and a lot of prayer, but no action. I see piles of charities and outreaches, programs and praddle, but I don’t see real progress. And when the church turns on other minorities or stirs up our lesser angels, they hurt the cause, and they hurt the Civi Rights Movement.
I’m not saying the Black Church is a bad thing. Not at all. It serves a wonderful purpose, impressively. But if we are going to see progress, for blacks, whites, browns, whatever, we have to act in a class movement more than a race movement. In a class movement most all minority – and working class – boats rise.
JMJ
JMJ;
“there is no higher power. You are surrendering yourself to a notion. It’s one thing to get through a tough time with prayer,
I cant make it clear enough that AA does not require the higher power to be of a spiritual element. It can be in the form of a member with years of sobriety. It can be a physical thing such as your family and the support they offer.
Anything but yourself. Because it is yourself that got you where you are.
Step #2 . Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
Agnostic Twelve Steps
Published August 5th, 2007 in Adult Children of Alcoholics, Al-Anon, Alcoholics Anonymous, Alcoholism, Males, Recovery, Spiritual, Women, Youth
For agnostics who would like to work the steps, this version of the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous provides slightly different wording of the six steps that make reference to God or a Higher Power. This version of the Twelve Steps seems to have originated in agnostic A.A. groups in California.
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol-that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe and to accept that we needed strengths beyond our awareness and resources to restore us to sanity.
[Original: Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.]
3. Made a decision to entrust our will and our lives to the care of the collective wisdom and resources of those who have searched before us.
[Original: Made a decision to turn our wills and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.]
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to ourselves without reservation, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
[Original: Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.]
6. Were ready to accept help in letting go of all our defects of character.
[Original: Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.]
7. With humility and openness sought to eliminate our shortcomings.
[Original: Humbly asked him to remove our shortcomings.]
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through meditation to improve our spiritual awareness and our understanding of the AA way of life and to discover the power to carry out that way of life.
[Original: Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.]
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
As you can see the program has applied itself to agnostics as well as christians
Here’s a fun little game, Micky…
“powerless… unmanageable… believe… accept…” and then comes this: “the care of the collective wisdom”! Make up your mind. Are we part of something greater – like society – or are we part of something silly – like God?
JMJ
ps – you’re smarter than you think.
Jersey , the point is that you take your choice of applications. depending on your convictions.
You could say society is gods creation.
If you dont believe in god, it doesnt matter, their will still be people like me to help you.
You could say God is society’s creation. And you could also say something better.
JMJ
I did. I said even I would help you.
I know what you’re getting at. I wont take the bait. I know what you want me to say.
he he he
JMJ
JMJ;
“ps – you’re smarter than you think.”
I’m smarter than you think I am, he he
Anyone who did not catch Eric on Political Vindication radio last night missed out.
He speaks like he writes. He’s a sharp cookie. His convictions are grounded. As reflected in his answers which come without pause. Which is why he also writes like he speaks.
If Eric doesnt mind I would like to throw out a question he asked in reference to the last caller he spoke to. The question was not directly addressed to the caller as much as it was the blacks who have been voting democrat for at least 50 yrs.
The question is so simple and to the point I believe it has escaped most peoples minds to even ask it.
It went something like this;
” in the last 50 years the democrats have been making you promises and what have you got today ?”
I really wanted to catch it, but I ended up crashing early.
JMJ
eric – Amen, and thank you for your words.
PB