Once again, a Friday night dinner party at a synagogue had to be tarnished by left wing activism.
This time, it was Stephen S. (not so) Wise that is in desperate need of having its tax exempt status revoked.
Somewhere along the line, Jews have to be broken from the stranglehold that liberalism has over them. There is nothing…repeat nothing…let me again say nothing…that requires Jews to be liberal.
There is nothing in the Torah (Old Testament) that forces one to be a democrat.
The concept of social justice is not found anywhere in any Hebrew book written by anybody with any credibility. In fact, social justice was the name of a 1940s magazine that was antisemitic in nature. This would make sense, given that liberals Jews respond to those who kick them in the teeth by thanking them, and asking for more. This explains the Eliot Spitzer scandal. Liberal Jews are masochists.
I entered the Synagogue hoping to hear about Judaism. After all, a Jewish person in the Synagogue should expect to hear about Judaism. As political as I am, after a long hard week, a Friday night service is a way to unwind and get away from the stresses of life, which include the stock market, war, and yes, politics in general.
Some would ask me if I would feel the same way if the message was republican. I respond to them that if that were to ever happen, I could let them know. My integrity runs deep, so I would assume it would still be inappropriate.
The speech at Stephen S. Witless was about vegetarianism. Yes, apparently according to some liberal fellow that was either a Rabbi or just a guy speaking, Jews should become vegetarians. He also wanted to make it clear that he was not a vegetarian himself, which fit perfectly into the “do as I say, not as I do” stereotype of liberals that is one part hypocrisy, one part self righteousness, and several helpings of smugness.
Apparently, hunting is wrong. So is eating most animals. True, the guy did not start chanting “meat is murder.” Maybe that was after I left the room in disgust. Before that occurred, the lowlight of his speech was about how wrong it was to eat veal.
Folks, the only reason some people have a problem with veal is because they are baby cows, and baby animals are adorable. There is nothing in any theology that forces cute animals from being given special treatment that average looking animals can only dream about. This is not junior high school. There is a place for ugly animals.
Some would say that I should have known better than to have gone to a liberal synagogue. No, no, no, no, no. This is backward thinking. I was there for a dinner party and a Jewish experience. I was not there for a political rally. I suspect that the only reason this synagogue did not violate the sabbath by passing around a collection plate was because the Rabbis could not decide whether to ram their heads up the hides of Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama.
The only connection between Judaism and food is the issue of which animals are kosher to eat. Cows are kosher. Beef is legal to eat according to all Jewish doctrines, provided that the animal is slaughtered to avoid unnecessary pain. Killing an animal humanely is noble. To imply that Judaism should encourage giving up eating animals is to confuse Judaism with liberal activism.
One reason I keep saying that liberal Jews need cranial-glutial extraction surgery is because they cannot seem to figure out what truly matters. Islamofacists are trying to kill every Jew on Earth. They are trying to do what Hitler failed to do over 60 years ago. For those liberal Jews who don’t get it, when I say Hitler, I mean a German genocidal lunatic, not our current Pro-Israel republican President. Only liberal Jews could have trouble making the distinction, hence my clarification.
Yet instead of talking about this, liberal Jews take synagogues hostage so they can talk about what they consider a real threat…veal.
Folks, veal is not a threat to anyone but the cows. If a person wants to give up meat, fine. Just don’t spend close to an hour telling me why we should, especially when you don’t!
For those who claim that meat is bad for the environment because of cows and methane gas, try fighting through the noxious stench of a liberal Rabbi gasbag trying to indoctrinate young minds with everything but actual real Judaism.
I want to relax in temple. It is tough to relax when I am rabid with rage, and fighting the urge to tell a Rabbi “Shut up. Just shut the (redacted) up. Take your liberal activism and just shut up. I am here to learn about my religion, and if you are not going to educate me specifically about my religion, then for the love of the Hebrew God I worship, shut up.”
I am sure that the people running this sinkhole of a place of worship will offer some pablum about how we should hear other perspectives. They might even babble about how they have actually allowed a conservative speaker at some point, such as Dennis Prager. Actually, he was just there to do a Torah study.
Some will argue that places of worship have always been political. That does not make this occurrence acceptable.
I left the dinner party early when that unctious Rabbi (or whatever he was) came to the table I was at and made a joke about whether or not we were enjoying the veal. He then chortled at his own wit, because somebody had to do so. Yes, smug people laughing about how smug they are is just delightful.
I ignored him, since trying to educate a man at that age is like trying to teach a pig to sing. It wastes time and annoys the pig.
I then announced to my friends at the table that I liked my veal the way I liked my cappucinos…that there was nothing tastier than a double half calf.
Of course I am not that heartless. After all, I hate coffee.
True, this Rabbi was less harmful than the head of Reform Judaism, who seems to think that opposition to the War in Iraq has anything at all to do with any Jewish text written anywhere. Also, his lack of a good speaking voice prevented too many people from being hypnotized, unless boredom hypnotizes. I guess it can.
Politics in temples is a cancer, and until enough of these institutions get their tax exempt status revoked, there is no other form of radiation treatment.
Some liberal Rabbis will complain that such threats are an attempt to silence them, which would threaten their freedom of speech. Good. A little fear would be healthy for them. The argument that I could just walk out as I did is not valid. I have to worship somewhere, and my consenting to attend a dinner party with friends my age does not in any way imply that I am consenting to have an appendage of the Democratic National Committee talk down to me.
I do not expect Stephen S. Wise learn from this experience. They are liberal, and asking liberal Rabbis to learn class and tact is like asking Mahmoud Armageddonijad to learn and embrace Hebrew. At some point people are indoctrinated too deeply to change. Besides, in some ways the liberal Rabbis are worse, because unlike Armageddonijad, they actually believe what they are saying.
Temples are bully pulpits. They should not be occupied by bullies.
The Jewish holiday of Passover is approaching, and it tells the story of four sons. One of the sons is wise, and one is wicked.
Perhaps Stephen S. Wise should change its name to Stephen S. Wicked until it bothers to alter its sermons to include republican Jews. After all, we are human beings, contrary to what some liberal Rabbis believe.
Hineni. Here I am. I am a proud Jewish republican, and I will not rest until synagogues are cleansed and scrubbed of every ounce of liberalism so that I may worship in peace.
eric
I love ya bro but i have to tell you that as a chef in the business for quite a while and one og the pre requisites to being a real chef is to know how your meat was raised and in butcherd.
I’m a big time meat eater, dont get me wrong.
All forms of animal harvesting involve some degree of pain and torment for the animal. The slaughter itself if done professionally is always quick and painless.
But I had to a chance once to se how veal is raised and the conditions the animal is put through in order to get a slice of meat that is highly over rated.
The calfs are sickly their wholw life due to mal nutrition from a milk only diet and pumped full of antibiotics to keep them from dying due to sucha poor diet. They are kept in pens in order to prevent muscle use to the point that they can barely stand on their own.
I had no problem that day watching cows get their heads wacked off and their bellys being slit from groin to neck while their guts all spilled into a bin.
As a matter of fact it made me hungry, but the veal thing botherd me.
Also.
Your experience is one of the reasons I stopped going to church. It didnt seem which one I went to there was always some underlying political message to slipped in. Sometimes it was baltently put up front.
I feel your pain. I just wanted a little spiritual up lifting and instead I came out feeling worse than before I went in.
I’ve said on this thread before that I havnt been inside a church for years unless it was to donate food. This subject has reminded me that I was wrong.
My wife dragged me to church with her about a year ago and the minister started with the global warming thing and how its our christian responsability to conserve and bla bla bla.
Eric,
I have heard that being vegetarian is good for Jews because it makes keeping kosher easier. No worrying about if you can have that ice cream for dessert or if you have to wait. Too bad your (notso)wise rabbi didn’t have the good sense to promote his agenda that way, but liberals don’t use their brains for much. They just FEEL things.
I have also heard that Hitler was a vegetarian. For whatever that’s worth. :)
Hunting can be pretty far from kosher, but if the game is killed instantly, and handled properly afterward, what’s the problem? Plenty of game animals meet the requirements.
Micky,
I learned some years back about how veal is raised. Haven’t tasted it since. Also learned how Premarin is made.(It’s a drug to stave off menopause.) Mares are repeatedly made pregnant. Preg(nant)mar(e)in. They are kept confined in stalls barely big enough to stand, and have a catheter in place to collect urine 24/7. I suppose they usually stay until they die of the bladder infections that will inevitably happen. Other drugs are now available if women can’t stand the hot flashes.
Just passed that on in case you know someone who’ll care.
Tygyrrrr wrote….
“Somewhere along the line, Jews have to be broken from the stranglehold that liberalism has over them. There is nothing…repeat nothing…let me again say nothing…that requires Jews to be liberal.
There is nothing in the Torah (Old Testament) that forces one to be a democrat.
The concept of social justice is not found anywhere in any Hebrew book written by anybody with any credibility. In fact, social justice was the name of a 1940s magazine that was antisemitic in nature. This would make sense, given that liberals Jews respond to those who kick them in the teeth by thanking them, and asking for more. This explains the Eliot Spitzer scandal. Liberal Jews are masochists.”
Now, I may not be Jewish, but growing up in and around NYC and spending most of my life there, I’ve known many Jewish folks. On top of that, I know history. I may not be some great historian, but I’m at least studied on the topis, as all Americans should be but sadly are not.
Do I, a gentile, and an atheistic gentile at that, really have to explain to you why Jewish people have tended toward the Left and Civil Libertarianism all these years? Really? When Conservatives blame the Left and Liberals for the failure of Vietnam (and now the failure in Iraq) does that remind you of anything? Does it? It should. It’s the “stab ib the back” theory, ya’ know? That’s the theory the Nationalist Germans (and later the Nazis) used against the Jews after the debacle of WWI. And speaking of Nationalism, when you Conservatives get all worked up with you flags, and your oaths, and your anthems, and your “Patriotism,” what does that remind you of? Can you name any nations of the past in which such nationalism led to progroms – and worse; much, much worse? I can name about 20. What about Democracy run amok as we see in the voting base of the ironically named “Republican” Party these days – the masses turning on minorities, immigrants, gays, pregnant kids, and any other unpopular easy scapegoat? Ring a bell? It really ought to.
There’s very good reasons why Jewish people have tended to civil libertarianism and Leftism over the years. I’m shocked to see the lack of understanding here about that.
If you ask me, a Jewish Republican is just one level less a masochist than a Black Republican today.
JMJ
Oh, and how could I forget the American Religious Right? Does THAT ring a bell??? Do you think they really love you, Tygrrrr? Do you think they really love and want what’s best for Israel? Really?
Please, think about it.
JMJ
God must be very angry at the people who claim to speak for him. I think most of them don’t want to work for a living. Ever notice how self-serving most of those prononcements from on high are? “God wants you to give your money to his prophet.” “God wants his prophet to have many wives.” (and raise hundreds of children on the public dime.) “God wants you to welcome the immigrants,” (who are overwhelmingly Catholic and tithe.)
That said, I still believe in God, and think religion is a good thing. It is structured and teaches us how to behave toward our fellow man. There are practical reasons for following the commandments – even when not so obvious. For people who don’t have much education (the norm until very recently in human history) it is a way to ensure survival and civilization.
Someone told me years ago that when people don’t believe in God, they will believe in anything. That may be the problem with most liberals.
Oh, and remember how economic down-turns were blamed on the Jews, especially socialistic Jews?
Just another thought…
Look, it ‘s okay to be a Jewish Republican, but it’s not okay to not know your own history well enough to understand why most Jews are not Conservatives. Really.
JMJ
Charly, that is the most backwards, upside-down, wrong thing I have read in a long, long time.
JMJ
I think pastors, rabbis and preachers get political when they have no spiritual game. It’s easier to toss out red meat than to challenge the congregation to live better lives. After all, it requires the speaker to live a pretty good life. And, no, I’m not forgetting the myriad preachers who don’t practice what they preach.
I’ve been fortunate to have pastors who largely keep their politics to themselves. I know it will come as a surprise to many, but politics is usually taboo in evangelical churches. The ones that make news do so because of they are different in that respect.
Once, at our last church, the pastor, a Mexican-American, made an unusual detour into politics when he lectured us on the need to approach the subject of illegal immigration in a “Christian way”. He encouraged us to welcome the tired, impoverished illegals as Christ would. I wondered how he would feel if I didn’t want to go out to Wendy’s after church but walk back stage and join him and the staff for lunch even though no one but staff were allowed back there. How would he justify not letting me in just because I wanted to come in. Plus, my brother was back there. Did he think it was Christian to keep my brother and I apart?
As for Jews going vegetarian, it’s illogical. Why would there be detailed instructions for handling meat if God meant for Jews not to eat it? If it’s easier to be Kosher as a vegetarian, perhaps that’s also a sign of little spiritual game. More often than not, the more legalistic you are, the less spiritual you are.
I once met a Jew who made the statement that pork never touched the top of her table. When she ate pork she used a tablecloth! Yeah… I know. She wasn’t a practicing Jew.
I don’t like veal so I have no problem not eating it. I do know what you’re speaking of, though. Politics really have no place in church. You are there to be uplifted and to worship G-d, not to be told you should be a vegetarian by someone who isn’t one. Sheesh! You would have been far better off staying home and reading your Bible. Some liberal started in on the Iraq war in my church about a month ago, saying we should not pray for our soldier’s safety. Instead we should pray that they come home. It was the final straw on an entire pile of straws and I got up and read him a riot act. That’s the last time politics have been mentioned in my church. :)
JMJ;
“. What about Democracy run amok as we see in the voting base of the ironically named “Republican” Party these days – the masses turning on minorities, immigrants, gays, pregnant kids, and any other unpopular easy scapegoat? Ring a bell? It really ought to.”
What a bunch of crap.
We just dont kiss their rumps with special treatments abd believe that they are entitled to other peoples rights and properties.
Immigrants ?
I see no republican base treating these people in any other way than humane and respectful.
Illegal immigrants ?
They are criminals.
Gays ?
If these people want equal rights they should not forget that they already have them.
Pregnant kids?
That fault is mostly with the liberal “no responsability or accountability” mindset that got them pregnant in the first place with the knowledge in mind that they can just cut the baby out and toss it or go on welfare.
That rings bells like the GONG of an empty headed liberal.
Also. Since you claim to be athiest it makes sense that you dont understand or appreciate the spiritual connection people have to their faith.
The bottom line is to believe that you are not the center of the universe as so many liberals are smuggly guilty of.
It adds humility to ones life so that they may actually humble themselves in the face of different beliefs and the wrongs that we as humans do.
When we admitt we are wrong in certain things it allows us to correct those wrongs.
My christianity allows me to see what the rights are that the wrongs need to be converted to. It teaches me a measure of decency with to guage right from wrong.
Talk about backwards and upside down things to say;
JMJ;
“If you ask me, a Jewish Republican is just one level less a masochist than a Black Republican today.”
Why would you infuse race into this ?
I know a lot of republicans that are not white Jersey. And they are well balanced decent people who mean no harm to themselves, or anyone
Micky, being an atheist doesn’t mean that you do not understand religion and spirituality. Actually, It means you do. You, apparently, do not. ;)
JMJ
Jersey ! Blow it out your rear !
Who the hell do you think you are to even begin to criticize the establishments of my faith, what I believe in and do or don’t understand ?
Most people have a personal relationship with God. And for your smug uppity ass to sit there and tell someone what they do and don’t understand is one of the most idiotic self centered and arrogant things anyone could ever say.
You can only say so much Jersey before I take it personally.
I understand this BUDDY !
You claim that the right is somehow turning on minorities and other sects of our society.
A large portion of the right is the religious right. All of us combined are far more generous and forgiving than any of you schmucks on the left will ever be.
Its the right and our faith based organizations that give more to charity in one year than all your pukey stupid concerts added up have ever contributed.
We are the ones putting up the illegal alien and feeding the hungry in our country and across the world.
We are the ones donating to the Red Cross, Salvation Army, March of dimes.
You and your bleeding heart buddies are actually a bunch of cheapos who want the government to pay for all these people on my dime.
Faith based organizations contribute more to our society by means of philanthropy than any other organization in this country besides the government.
——————————————————————————————————————-
http://philanthropy.com/free/articles/v19/i04/04001101.htm
His initial research for Who Really Cares revealed that religion played a far more significant role in giving than he had previously believed. In 2000, religious people gave about three and a half times as much as secular people — $2,210 versus $642. And even when religious giving is excluded from the numbers, Mr. Brooks found, religious people still give $88 more per year to nonreligious charities.
He writes that religious people are more likely than the nonreligious to volunteer for secular charitable activities, give blood, and return money when they are accidentally given too much change.
http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~cook/movabletype/archives/2006/12/conservatives_a.html
are nicer than liberals
Boris pointed me to this book by Arthur Brooks, who looked at statistics on charitable giving from several surveys between 1996 and 2004. Some findings:
On average, religious people are far more generous than secularists with their time and money. This is not just because of giving to churches—religious people are more generous than secularists towards explicitly non-religious charities as well. They are also more generous in informal ways, such as giving money to family members, and behaving honestly.
The nonworking poor—those on public assistance instead of earning low wages—give at lower levels than any other group. Meanwhile, the working poor in America give a larger percentage of their incomes to charity than any other income group, including the middle class and rich.
A religious person is 57% more likely than a secularist to help a homeless person.
Conservative households in America donate 30% more money to charity each year than liberal households.
If liberals gave blood like conservatives do, the blood supply in the U.S. would jump by about 45%.
There is a ton of proof to show that we on the right are actually the ones who give a crap instead of running around bloating our egos and pretending as if we do like the bleeding hearts on the left.
But first in order for that to happen you would have to stop believing that your excrement smells like a rose garden and humble yourself to actually realize that there are far greater forcess going on than your mouth
Micky (and Charly), if you believe in a a thing that you don’t understand…. (Stevie Wonder)
I just can’t seem to stop repeating that quote these days. You guys are like bad little kids at Christmas – I want, gimme-gimme-gimme, everything’s simple and clear! Hey, how’s the Tooth Fairy? Is she well these days? You guys getting everything you want?
Give it a rest. We have serious troubles in our great republic and you guys are fussing over nonsense. Get with the program or be left behind.
JMJ
Jersey.
Its you who doesnt understand the bond between a man and his faith.
What we choose to believe in is our business. And if means so little to you , you wouldnt spend as much time as you do knocking it..
Like I said. Untill you accept the fact that you and your big mouth are not the center of the universe you will never understand it.
NOBODY to tell anyone what is a more important facility in their life.
WTF are you taliking about ? Gimme, gimme , gimme ?
Any average guy can pick up a book or a bible and study theology and religion along with its history and automatically think he understands what spiritual people are going thru.
This makes him an ignorant person.
As far as left behind goes, its really starting to look like its the Dems that are going to get left behind.
A G A I N !!!!!
And as far as seruous problems go.
I just addressed the fact that its the right and the faith based groups that are more willing to donate their time , blood and money more than the left.
And by the way, as far as gimme , gimme , gimme goes its the left that is always running around with their hands out wanting this and that entitlement.
You and your ilk are the beggars in our society.
Not those who believe in God.
And as of right now I’m protesting directly to Eric that good people of faith not have to be belittled or mocked on this thread by you and your statements saying we dont understand our faith or our spirituality.
How would feel if I told you that you dont understand someone or thing close to you that I have never met or seen ? HUH ?
“Its you who doesnt understand the bond between a man and his faith.”
Oh, I understand it just fine. It is the irrational bond that has done more damage to humanity than ever other disease combined – and it is a disease. It is a psychological disorder. It was one thing iif you believed in such things 500 years ago – before Darwin, before Einstein, before Kepler, before sattelites and space ships and microscopes and carbon dating and neurosurgery and the scientific method, etc. But with what we know about the universe around us now, God is no longer a rathional, teneble belief. It’s just too unlikely that there is a God (at least God as we popoularly understand Him). It’s fine to look at Jesus Christ, for example, as a great philosopher – the man we see in Jefferson’s expurgated Bible: No miracles, no trinity, no immaculate conception, no rising from the dead. But to understand the world as we do today and still to cling to beliefs that are patently absurd is to be psychologically ill.
JMJ
Look Mr. Know it all.
You can approach this from any angle you want the facts are still the facts that I pointed out.
And you can blab all you want about the atrocoties of organized religion all you want it doesbt change the fact that in this country the religious right and people of faith are a major force in the fabric of the morals that hold it together.
And you ever paid attention to something besides your own mouth you would remember that I am no fan of organized religion, as I have mentiioned many times and even written about on my own blog. And was even picked up and posted by a liberal blog.
http://www.theseminal.com/2007/06/14/how-i-found-god-my-journey-away-from-organized-religion/
http://micky2.wordpress.com/2007/08/09/soul-searching-among-the-stars/#comments
If you want to look ay only the bad aspects of spirituality thats your problem.
BVut you have no right to tell those of us that we are any more foolish than you are most of the time.
You are a non believer but you have the unbelievable nerve to tell good people on this blog that they are wrong for believing , but if they are going to do it they are doing it wrong. Such as your assinine remark about black Jews being masochistic when its you and the left who are about the most self destrucive brand of people there are.
Lets look at all the people who have been killed as a result if communism, socialism and secularism, SHALL WE ?
If you are ready to admit that the fault lays equally over all aspects of belief whether it be political belief or spritual belief than you probably have to stick your tail between you legs and beat it.
The belief that we “JUST HERE” is about as narrow minded and less complicated ad thought can get. It is the epitome of a lazy and challenged mind to be so simplistic to actually think that there is not something incredibly big going on out there that we can only respect as much as we cant grasp the enormity of it.
I choose to call that enormity G O D.
No one here on this thread has mocked or belittled you for your belifs untill now.
And unless someone here is trying to shove religion upon you and convert you I suggest you have an ounce of class and offer the same respect to Eric, Charly, and myself.
And if you really want to get into the great minds of our time. No of them have ever givin a satisfactory answer as to what was going on before anything as we now it ever was.
Yea we discoverd reletivity and gravity and theories of evolution but non of them have explained our purpose in this universe.
Nor have they come to any conclusive evidence on the science of global warming with Al Gore at the altar.
You can have faith in God and denounce him, but you still believe he exists when you do that.
But you cannot ever NOT have faith in him and then say he does not exist.
I don’t really have any “beliefs” per se, so there’s really nothing to knock. I have knowledge, notions, theories, hypostheses, guesses, etc, but either I know something or I don’t. I don’t “believe” anything unless I’m pretty darn sure it is true. I am not sure that the Earth’s climate is warming due to human pollution, but I do think that given the risk/cost/benefit analyses we should probably act as if it were true. I do not think we have any particular “purpose in this universe,” as we are just random happenstance, but I do think it’s okay to assume that perhaps we do have a purpose, as long as it is ethical and rational. It’s okay to prefer one theory or another about the origin of the universe, but it’s not okay to just assume that some magic being brought it all about, as that is an intellectual cop-out – we’ll never really know the origin of the universe if we already assume we do when we don’t.
But I’m not going to pretend that it’s okay to base life’s decisions, even partially, on something as incredulous and obviously wrong as the God of Abraham. Not for anyone. It would be hypocritical and disingenuous of me.
JMJ
Jersey,
You have it all wrong about why Jews are Liberal Democrats in this country, It traces directly to WWII, Jews became Democrats due to their loyalty to FDR and his liberation of the Jews in Germany. Little did they know at the time he turned away a boat load of Jews Hitler sent to prove the world didn’t care about them. They raised their kids to be democrats and followed along as the party ideology changed. Most modern liberal Jews have just believed the brainwashing over the years and don’t attribute their allegiance to that time. That is the true history of this alliance.
Back to Eric’s original topic I have to relate my own experience regarding religion and politics, yet had nothing to do with liberal versus conservative. This occurred a few years back at a synagogue I was a member of in Agoura. It was Yom Kippur right after the OJ Simpson verdict was announced. It seems I was a member of the same synagogue as Fred Goldman (Ron Goldman’s father for those who didn’t know). Yom Kippur is the Day of Atonement where we are supposed to atone for our sins and ask for forgiveness from God and those we have wronged. We are also supposed to grant forgiveness to those who have wronged us. There is more to it than that but at least that is the spirit of the Holiday. ANyway in the middle of the service, the Rabbi calls Fred Goldman to the Bimah (loosely the Jewish equivalent of a pulpit). Mr. Goldman then stands up and spews all his hatred for O.J. and his desire for vengeance. I was appalled. Regardless of how you felt about the trial and verdict. THIS was not the time or place for such an event. Had it been a normal Friday night service maybe it would not have bothered me as much, but it was as far from the spirit of Yom Kippur as you could get. I am not faulting Fred Goldman as he was hurting and just expressing his feelings. I think the Rabbi used terrible judgment in subjecting the rest of us to this at a moment like that.
Jersey one other point when you talk about civil liberties, the Democrats want to take away more than the Republicans do. I will agree that republicans are wrong on abortion and gay rights, and drugs but democrats want to tell me what I can drive, how to do it (seat belt and helmet laws), whether or not I can smoke, whether or not I can own a gun, what I can say (speech codes, campaign finance laws), where I can express my religious beliefs, where and whether I educate my kids, what medical procedures I can have, how much I am allowed to earn and keep, and the list goes on. The Democrats just wants to control different things than the Republicans, they are not civil libertarians either. I am a republican because I feel they are better than the democrats and the Libertarian Party is dead wrong on foreign policy and too marginal to be significant.
JMJ;
“I don’t really have any “beliefs” per se, so there’s really nothing to knock. I have knowledge, notions, theories, hypostheses, guesses, etc, but either I know something or I don’t.”
Thats all the more reason for you to not belittle or mock those that have different beliefs than you.
You do have beliefs and you’re an idiot to think you dont.
You just said that its incredulous and wrong to make decisions based on the God of Abraham. Like it or not dude, that is a belief.
The bottom line is this.
You said that the right is turning on gays , minorities and whatever else. When actually its the right which contains the larger part of our countrys christian base that vare more for these people than any other base, as I have proved with facts pertaining to the level of donated blood, time and money that comes the religious right.
So your arguement that we are somehow a scourge upon these people is blatantly false. We are actually the ones doing more than anyone to help them and other victims in the world.
If you fail to reckognize these simple facts its no surprise that you cant see the good that those who believe in God have done for this country.
Its not for you to say if its O.K. or not any more than it is to put us down for it.
If I was trying to convert you that would be a different story.
I get just as angry with my wife when she tries to tell me that my brand of belief is wrong as I do with anyone else on this earth.
You simply cannot speak for or against something you have never experienced.
So stop pretending as if you know anything about the subject other than what your history lessons have taught you.
As far as the “why not ” mentallity on global warming thats just stupid.
If we applied that mentallity to every possible bad scenario we would never get anything done. This present scenario works only to rob us of our hard earned money.
These morons have been saying for decades that in 5 to 10 years this and that is going to happen and what ? WHAT? Nothing, its all a big hoax and a joke. The earth has been through far more in the last billions of years that anything man was able to dish out and guess what ? HERE WE ARE !!!!
Maybe we shouldnt step on ants because we may create a food shortage for anteaters and then the whole ecological balace will get thrown off and the earth will spin out of control like a top.
“…you cant see the good that those who believe in God have done for this country.”
Nonsense. How you can infer that is beyond me. I’ve never said anything to that affect. Nor would I say that people have not been motivated by religion to do great things. I am simply saying that irational belief can cause terrible calamity. And, ya’ know, while I completely understand religion, I am at a bit of a loss that it remains so strong in America. I suppose we seek solace in religion, shelter from the real world, and our rabidly individualistic culture. Perhaps we just don’t like our lives as much as people from other developed countries where religion is not as present. I’m not sure, but perhaps Obama got it right. I tend to think so.
Of course, I wouldn’t lump Judasim with this, because it is an older, richer tradition. But then, there are plenty of Jewish atheists and there have been for hundreds of years.
JMJ
JMJ,
I’ve restrained myself before because I don’t like to pile on and I thought that you and Micky mixed it up fine without my 2 cents, but since you addressed your insults to me regarding a general comment:
Charly, that is the most backwards, upside-down, wrong thing I have read in a long, long time.
I might say the same thing about everything you post, but unlike you, I try to occasionally retain some semblance of decorum. Unlike Micky, I don’t care to read any of your lame explanations of why you said that.
For someone who holds himself forth as some kind of historian, you still come across as the most ignorant dolt.
You say one thing, then contradict yourself in a following post. Your denigration of the God of Abraham, followed by your attitude on global warming is a prize example. The stakes are much higher for you if God exists after all, than if global warming is true. We can survive global warming. Damnation is a bit more serious.
I’ll lift a quote from Micky here:
“It is the epitome of a lazy and challenged mind to be so simplistic to actually think that there is not something incredibly big going on out there that we can only respect as much as we cant grasp the enormity of it.
I choose to call that enormity G O D.”
Back in the dark ages when I went to school, the big bang theory was being taught. It was logical and elegant and still left me wondering how THAT got started. Every theory about creation and evolution always suceeds in putting back farther in time the beginning of everything, but never gets to……?That’s where God lives.
I do wonder what it is that you believe in though. You seem to have a smattering of naive beliefs in a lot of things moment by moment, but nothing very consistent. Don’t bother to tell me. I’m sure it’ll change by next week.
JMJ;
“Nonsense. How you can infer that is beyond me. I’ve never said anything to that affect. ”
JMJ:
“Oh, I understand it just fine. It is the irrational bond that has done more damage to humanity than ever other disease combined – and it is a disease. It is a psychological disorder.”
There you said it ! by means of only pointing out the bad and also saying that the right has turned on minorities, pregant kids etc…
The larhest religious section of out country is on the right. So when you say that about the right you say that about a lot of christians, Jews and people of faith.
I may say that the left has a highly irrational bond to their beliefs also and prove it by all the luinatic fringe code pink moonbats etc.. out there and all the people that worship leaders such as Hitler, Mao PolPot , Stalin and all the communist socialistic leaders we have today.
People of no belief are very, very dangerous Jersey. What do they have to loose ?
Charly, you complain about my decorum? Here’s what you said that caused my response:
“God must be very angry at the people who claim to speak for him. I think most of them don’t want to work for a living. Ever notice how self-serving most of those prononcements from on high are? “God wants you to give your money to his prophet.” “God wants his prophet to have many wives.” (and raise hundreds of children on the public dime.) “God wants you to welcome the immigrants,” (who are overwhelmingly Catholic and tithe.)”
What are you saying here? Got a problem with Catholics, Charly? At leat the Catholics are charitable. I can think of plenty of Protestants who couldn’t care less about the poor, with their “Prosperity Theology,” and “Personal Relationship with God,” as if God is just a good friend with deep pockets who lies his ego stroked. What are you? A Mormon? A Methodist? First Church of Mongolian Shaman? Listening to one religious person bash another persons religion is like watching to lemmings argue over who gets to be in the front of the line.
“That said, I still believe in God, and think religion is a good thing. It is structured and teaches us how to behave toward our fellow man. There are practical reasons for following the commandments – even when not so obvious. For people who don’t have much education (the norm until very recently in human history) it is a way to ensure survival and civilization.”
There are plenty of people and cultures throughout the world that have done just fine without Jesus, and Moses, and Mohammed. There are plenty of people who wish they never heard any of those names, for good reason. They don’t say “Fear God” for nothing.
“Someone told me years ago that when people don’t believe in God, they will believe in anything. That may be the problem with most liberals.”
This is the most backwards, upside-down, wrong thing I have read in a long, long time. I just can’t tell you, with any further decorum, just how many things are wrong with that statement. I can’t stop chuckling every time I read it. Sorry man.
Micky, there are screaming lunatics who wrote great music because they were screaming lunatics just as their are religious people who have done great things because they were religious. It doesn’t make either of them sane.
JMJ
You miss the point because you dont get it. Your pride and arrogance are in the way.
Like I said before but in lengthier terms. Anyone who thinks we just got here by “happenstance” is not willing to look for the answers.
It still doesnt cahnge the fact that youi ignorantly bashed a part of our country that is worth far more to mankind than you and your kind.
We are the givers and forgivers. We are the charity, we are the heart and soul this countrys morals and ethics were based upon and founded on. One of the goals was to have the freedom to worship as we please and not be spat upon by the likes of you.
Even the founding fathers who made sure there was a separartion of church and state were christians and made that decision based on christian morals and ethics.
Jefferson was just one of many, so spare me the “scourge of society speech”.
And since when is the majority of our country (60%) considered insane against the handful of musicianswe have?(Who are mostly christian by the way)
None of what you are saying necessarily makes them insane either.
Be nice if you could remember from one hour to the next what you are saying and if you could actually stay on topic for a change.
You said the wrong thing, I proved it to be wrong.
Done deal.
Jersey, I’ve read some of your blogs outside this forum and am reminded of the second oldest profession – there were guys I knew who could fight but were given late notice or additional funds to not win… and there were other times on a level playing field, they were as good as the champions… as logical as you are in some of your posts, there are times you play the role of Washington Nationals against Brian, Charly, Parrothead, and Micky – the Harlem Globetrotters…I can’t help but smile at either the utter brilliance of your deception or the self-induced existential mindset you project on this site…
Oh Jersey. By the way.
The largest selling music in our country is country western.
And guess what most of those boys do on Sunday ?
Damn lunatic musicians, to hell with them all.
Micky, I think it was Stephen Wright who once said that fish listen to country music in their heads. Most “liberals” are Christians too, by the way Micky. Most Americans are Christian (or so they claim). What? Do you want a medal?
Eagle, Nice try. I really don’t care what you personally think of my style. If you notice any difference between the way I post here and elsewhere, it’s because I keep it cleaner on thise site out of deference to our host. Otherwise, you’d be reading just how much I really don’t care about what you personally think of my style right now.
JMJ
I supposed an F bomb would clarify our positions or make things more mature… and quite frankly, I like your style – although I don’t agree with all, you offer some interesting perceptions…
JMJ;
“Most liberals are christians too”
Yea , but the point is that the majority of them are on the right and its the right that donates more and contributes more in all areas over the left.
Get back on topic.
You were blasting the right for turning on certain people (gays, pregnant kids, minorities and immigrants) and I proved that nothing could be further from the truth.
I’m no fan of country western, but the point you made using musicians was dumbfounded.
Funny how when you cant conclude on one topic you start or bring up another.
No I dont want a medal, I want you to convert to christianity and conservatism.
:-)
Eagle.
“interesting perceptions”?
I guess that would depend on what you determine the perciever to be.
I agree with the points about leftist Jews, I once had a Rabbi state that NOTHING is written in stone. After the service I cornered him to inquire if he even knows what the term written in stone means. He did not, so I agave the hint about Moses and a Heston Movie… I left that temple to never return (unlike Obama, it did not take me 20 years and I knew what was said in my congregation).
I next had a Rabbi that quoted Susan Sontag, but rarely quoted Torah. I left there as well. Jews need to get over liberalism and return to the book.
JMJ;
“Perhaps we just don’t like our lives as much as people from other developed countries where religion is not as present. I’m not sure, but perhaps Obama got it right. I tend to think so.”
We like ourselves plenty Jersey.
I like what has been givin to me by God so much that I show my respects by using my tools of brain and body to its fullest potential.
I am fantastic, I am a miracle, I can do anything once I set my mind to it. But only because of the gifts bestowed upon me by God. For me to sit on my ass and whine about what I can or cant have or expect someone else to do it for me is comprable to suicide. Which is cause for damnation.Thats why the majority of us take part in a faith that betters us into more “wholeness”
It is low self esteem that causes one to not want to engage in practices that can only make you better. The ” its hopeless ” mentallity which is prevalent on the left would be a good example of this.
And by the way, if Obama got it so right he would of mentioned that all the forms of government that have banned religious practice are either not doing to well or failed.
Punished with a baby ? yea, Obama got it right. Jeez.
Thanks Eagle. I like debatinbg with you too. All you guys, really.
Micky, I don’t think it is true that most Cristians are “on the right.” I think they, like everyone else, tend to be rather fluid in their ideologies. If you look at polls today, and you equate liberal with democrat and conservative with republican (as you guys do), you’d be hard-pressed to stand by what you said.
If you do ever manage to convert me, the universe just may well collapse! LOL! Probably best to just leave as is…
As for banning religion, I don’t know anyone proposing that – not even me. That’s an Old Stalinist/Maoist/Fidelista thing. There’s a huge black line between socialism and totalitarian communism. It’s amazing that any grown man wouldn’t see that.
jweaver, I find it kinda hard to believe that you had a rabbi who didn’t know what the phrase “written in stone” meant. And I find it laughable that you would use Charlton “You may now have my guns” Heston as a “hint.”
JMJ
Oh, and as for “punished by a baby,” yes, I would call forcing a child to carry a child to term, as punishing that child – both of them really – with a baby. It is Totalitarian Misogyny.
JMJ
No one forced her to spread her legs.
Now either put the kid up for adoption or take the responability and shut up.
Children are not punishment.
Screw the baby ! Cut it out and toss it in a dumpster ! But hey ! Lets go save some obscure species from the strangleholds of civilized humans. Or give special rights to those who want to kill us. We can fill the country up with illegal aliens but hey ! We dont want any babies, they’re too much trouble.
Yea ! Thats the ticket!
“Totalitarian misogyny?”
What a humongously large load of crap that was.
Once again, it will be the religious right who puts out most of the support and funds to deal with these girls who are pregnant, the Chiurchs, Synogogues, Temples and conservatives will be paying for the majority of the support services that go into helping these girls.
Not you and your lame duck dead beat lefties.
JMJ;
“If you look at polls today, and you equate liberal with democrat and conservative with republican (as you guys do), you’d be hard-pressed to stand by what you said.”
The articles and documents I linked you to above clearly define and prove that we the conservatives and the right donate more to the causes that you and you lefties cry about. Try reading it for a change.
That is the point in this debate. All the other demographics you want to change the subject to have nothing to do with anything we were talking about.
However misguided you find the approach of this particular Rabbi to be, HE IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! Have a heart and don’t eat veal…in fact, strongly consider decreasing your red meat consumption as well…
Cruelty is endemic to human existence…why not take it upon ourselves to lessen cruelty ( yes, murdering baby animals is unspeakable cruelty…) in our lives…
I’m no veggie…but I find many of the folks I’ve known who happen to abstain from meat etc…to be far more principled concerning what they put in their bodies than those who consume red meat on a daily basis…
We live in the 1st world, it is incumbent upon us to continually refine the way in which we deal with all of G-d’s creations…The 3rd world is brutal, cold and inhumane as hell…the treatment of animals ( as well as other human beings…) is a tragedy and insult to the divine…We in the West can and must do better…
Micky: “perspectives” versus perceptions – I’m the one who makes the perceptions based on the perspectives posed… wow, that was a mouthful…
And the reason I find Jersey’s perspective interesting is because some of his comments are researched or come from personal experience… I know you guys have had at it for a long while – and I respect your opinions. You and I agree on more issues than not, but it would be quite a boring ticky tacky existence if everyone were on the right…and an especially boring blog site! I am always interested in hearing differing opinions because I learn that way.
That was interesting, Brian!
Micky,
“No one forced her to spread her legs.”
Actually, by law and custom, sex with a child IS rape. Therefore, you Pro-Lifers want force raped children to carry their rapists babies. I find that reprehensible. It is compound child abuse – and yes, Totalitarian Misogyny.
“Once again, it will be the religious right who puts out most of the support and funds to deal with these girls who are pregnant, the Chiurchs, Synogogues, Temples and conservatives will be paying for the majority of the support services that go into helping these girls.”
Oh puh-lease. You guys don’t take care of girls babies. What a load. Us taxpayers get stuck with that vast, VAST majority of that bill. And it’s not the religious “right” that does most of the charitable giving, though it is true that per capita religious PEOPLE do tend to give more – but they give it to religious charities, and much of that is for proselyzation and the clericy. If anything Catholics, if I’m not mistaken, are the most charitable of the bunch.
I’m sure I give as much as religious people do, but then I do not tithe to any church, so the number gets skewed there. My wife and I concentrate on animal charities, coincidentally enough.
JMJ
Exactly Eagle – and that’s why I come here and I believe that’s why our good host tolerates my incessant madness. ;)
JMJ
JMJ;
“Actually, by law and custom, sex with a child IS rape. Therefore, you Pro-Lifers want force raped children to carry their rapist babies. I find that reprehensible. It is compound child abuse – and yes, Totalitarian Misogyny.”
DONT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH !
I was talking about the vast majority of teens who make bad choices and then just figure “ah , what the hell, I can just cut it out and toss it’ Remember that ?
pregnancies due to rape are just a speck on the map compared to all the legitimate pregnancies conceived due to ignorance, lust and stupidity.
Misogyny ?
Utterly and profoundly stupid.
“Oh yea! To hell with women, especially the pregnant ones”
Sometimes you not only talk out of your a** you also lie by putting words in people mouths.
And if you learned how to use your mouse you would of discovered that is the right and the religious right that give more than any other sect in our society.
Here, since you’re too lazy to do some research that goes past your head and mouth.
The book’s basic findings are that conservatives who practice religion, live in traditional nuclear families and reject the notion that the government should engage in income redistribution are the most generous Americans, by any measure.
Conversely, secular liberals who believe fervently in government entitlement programs give far less to charity. They want everyone’s tax dollars to support charitable causes and are reluctant to write checks to those causes, even when governments don’t provide them with enough money.
Such an attitude, he writes, not only shortchanges the nonprofit’s but also diminishes the positive fallout of giving, including personal health, wealth and happiness for the donor and overall economic growth.
All of this, he said, he backs up with statistical analysis.
“When it comes to helping the needy, Brooks writes: “For too long, liberals have been claiming they are the most virtuous members of American society. Although they usually give less to charity, they have nevertheless lambasted conservatives for their callousness in the face of social injustice.”
It figures, you would donate to animals, humans are expendable right ? And they pollute the earth. Damn humans.
The link would not take. But its above in another comment in case you actually care to indulge you mind in the truth.
Heres an outrageous amount of proof.
http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?encquery=9fd7dc3588fae50ad419764180d4375290a0fe3625922022bfc279826f953ac6&invocationType=keyword_rollover&ie=UTF-8
Micky, that’s not proof. That’s a pile of rightwing publications and blogs.
As for forcing children to have babies, I find that so reprehensible that I will not further address it for the sake of my sanity.
Tax dollars do for more for the poor and needy than all the charities combined multiplied by about 7-8 times. It is with the modern SECULAR democracy and the welfare state that poverty has been alleviated more than at any time in history. In fact, the worst times in history for poverty, the worse places in the world for poverty, are all marked by extreme religiosity. Period.
JMJ
Your sanity is a matter of question.
I never said a thing about girls who get raped.
And you are just making sh** up becuase I never said a thing about forcing anyione to do anything.
You are the one who said we have turned on these people and you have
N O T H I NG to back it up !
Come on ! Show an ounce pf something ANYTHING to prove me wrong.
Come on ! Dont just walk away. Do it !
I have proven with out a doubt that you are wrong.
The first publication is from a man who claims no allegiance to either right or left and everything he has studied is verifiable.
If you google ” conservatives more generous ” You will come up with a ton of statistics and charts and polls and surveys that back me up. What you were looking at was just one page of about a hundred.
Tax dollars are N O T T H E P O I N T !!!!! FOCUS DUDE !!
WE the right and the religious right cough up more contributions in the form of blood, money and volunteerism.
And since 60% of the country is christian it would only be safe to say that christians pay a majority of the taxes that go to aleveate poverty.
Ontop of what we give to churchs and charities that makes you guys , the leffties and bunch of cry babies who do nothing and expect everyone else to foot the bill.
For you to say we have turned on these people is just plain BS.
We just dont coddle them and give them handouts and offer simplistic solutions that offer no help in the long run.
Look at all these people who have been voting democratic for 50 years now , where and what has it gotten them ?
The countries that are suffering because of extreme religiosity are the ones that allow religion to intertwine with government.
So dont even try to bring that into this subject.
I stand by my last post.
“US charitable giving hit a record 295.02 billion dollars in 2006” – this from ’07, and regarding the Katrina bump: http://www.terradaily.com/reports/US_Charitable_Giving_Sets_New_Record_Topping_Katrina_Effort_999.html – And this left group applauding the increase. Here’s a easy-to-read budget of the US in 2006: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget,_2006
Now, you tell me what the difference is. Add up the entitlements, entitlement debt maintenance, the VA, Justice- some of it anyway -, c’mon. Get real.
JMJ
JMJ
Eagle.
True, but if you notice most of the time Mr McJones never has anything but personal experience and opinions to back up his claims.
I myself like to solidify my claims with resources that are more reputable and reliable than just opinions or experiences.
And I actually take the whole minute it takes to post and produce it.
Our personal experiences, upbringing and surroundings are usally what casts the mold of our standings but does not give a clear picture to what is really going on in this world.
What do you mean? I just proved my point above – charitable giving doesn’t come anywhere close to the expenditures for the same causes as the federal spending – let alone state and local. Entitlements, those things you guys say should be replaced by “personal responsibility” and “charity,” were over 1.5 trillion dollars. Charitible giving was just over 295 billion (so I was a little off from the top of my head, it’s not 7-8 times, it’s 5 times the expenditures as of ’06). Let alone the VA, debt interest, justice, etc.
JMJ
federal spending was not the point to start with. Are you suffering from ADDS ?
The fact of the matter is that we the right give more than the left.
We have not turned on pregnant children, minorities, illegals as you say we do.
We pay just as much taxes as the left but also perform more charity than the left.
Were that money ends up and goes to is for another debate, can you please try to understand that ?
I know you’re loosing your a** here and you would love to deflect by changing subjects.
Unfortunatly I have a memeory. And I remember the subject of this debate.
And the proof is overwhelming and undeniable that the right gives more voluntarily than the left.
Period, do the research. Every honest poll and study says so.
I have provided you with the links and heading under which to google it with and supplied you with reliable documents and statistics.
All you have once again is a bunch of hot air
Jersey.
And just as matter of fact and not to vear off subject here. Even though the links you supplied dealt with other aspects besides the subject at hand here the first one is a joke, incredibly bias, its like fullblown moonbat central save the earth tree huggersville. The second one “wikipedia” also does not deal with the subject at hand and only explains the fed budget, not who donates more or who has turned on anyone.
And you really cant trust wikipedia Jersey because if you notice at the bottom right hand corner of each frame or page it has a link to “EDIT”.
Anyone including you could go in there and type in anything you want.
I myself have refered you to a recource bed containing hundreds of links claiming and backing my position wuth real numbers from economists and not partisan authors and editors.
The reason you cant find any leftist publications proving Dems give more than Cons is because the evidence just is not there.
The right has the aspect of being more generous of the left and so they will brag about it, naturally, why wouldnt they ?
So you are more apt to find these stories in publications that lean to the right.
In being fair I decided to show you the ones where the authors and economist claim no allegeance to one side or the other
Nice try though bub, get with the program
Oh, that stupid Righ/Left charity thing. I don’t believe it – I can’t even imagine how one would calculate such a thing other than by compiled anedotes and polls, which for this would be scientifically useless.
As for the rest, I’m done with this. you’re denying facts because you don’y like the sources (the “full-blown moonbat” site was applauding the level of privare charittable giving, and the wiki was simply an easy-to-read version of the same data you’d get from the gov’t), yet your sources and data are all anecdotal, poll driven, and assuming that most religious people are rightists when that would be physically impossible given that people have not been voting GOP even though most people are religious.
So, I’m done here. I can’t argue your pseudo-logic.
JMJ
Yea, you’re done alright, cuz you got nothin.
Its not psuedo logic Jersey, its fact.
I myself stated above in the beggining that private donation is greatest in this country second only to govermental support.
I said;
“Faith based organizations contribute more to our society by means of philanthropy than any other organization in this country besides the government.”
So why you had to bring up federal expenditures in that area made no sense at all. Unless you knew I was right and you had to obfuscate as if you had some legitimate point to make.
And since the secular society here resides mostly on the left and the christian society resides mostly on the right along with verifiable (not anectodal or poll driven) statistics as the authors mention ontop of the fact that 60% of the country is christian and most of them voting republican the fact still remains that we are the charitable ones while you guys just sit around and bitch about everything expecting someone else to always do something about it. And as soon as we protest the methods applied to helping these people we are racist, bigots or mysogynst. Or you accuse us of forcing children who are victims of rape to have the baby. When the real issue was babys concieved in consentual sex.
How utterly childish and ridiculous.
And weak.
When people care in different ways it doesnt mean that the alternate methods of care make that person mean and uncaring.