Several days ago, I met Rob Reiner. He was the host for an evening with Senator Harry Reid of Nevada. The event took place at UCLA, which is within walking distance of my home.
Mr. Reiner is the son of legendary actor Carl Reiner. Rob Reiner became famous playing Mike “Meathead” Stivic on the groundbreaking 1970s sitcom “All in the Family,” with the outstanding late Carroll O’Connor.
While this was meant to be an event for people to the left of Leon Trotsky, I like to keep tabs on what the other side is doing. They are my opponents, not my enemies. Nevertheless, liberals, like all children, need to be watched closely.
My initial impression of Mr. Reiner before I met him was a highly unfavorable one. My image of him was that he was a hardcore leftist who made wack jobs look reasonable.
This is why I like to look people in the eye.
Rob Reiner does have some notions that in my mind are closer to lunacy than sanity. For one thing, he belongs to the crowd that believes President Bush has committed high crimes, misdenmeanors, and treason. Mr. Reiner uses the word treason emphatically.
I am troubled by this for many reasons, but mainly because treason is punishable by death.
I have never questioned Mr. Reiner’s patriotism, and I wish he could show the same courtesy to the President.
Yet beneath all of his bluster, there were hints that Mr. Reiner is slightly less of an ideologue than he used to be. He has discovered pragmatism.
While Mr. Reiner perfectly fits the profile of a Barack Obama supporter, he is ardently supporting Hillary Clinton. He had some very tough comments about this issue.
“Barack Obama has no experience. He has no record. He has no accomplishments.”
“Hillary is losing because there is more sexism in this country than racism. Men don’t want a woman to lead them.”
“Hillary is the only one that can win the general election. Barack Obama cannot win. There are several states Hillary can put in play, especially Florida. If Obama gets the nomination, John McCain wins Florida.”
“I’m tired of losing. I want to Win the White House. Hillary can win the White House. We need to win the White House.”
This is what separates Mr. Reiner from the craziest of the crazies. He understands that winners get to govern. He does not want ideological purity and moral victories. Losing does usually convert all but the worst of the nutcases.
One thing I give Mr. Reiner credit for is that these comments were all made after the event. He spoke to people at length. Many were Obama supporters, and he fiercely debated them. He was not rude. He was respectful and forceful. Yes, they were all liberals, but Mr. Reiner nevertheless treated them like their opinions mattered. Not all Hollywood celebrities do this.
Unfortunately, many of those in attendance were zealots. George McGovern was a fascist right winger I guess.
Several people objected to my recommending that Harry Reid make peace with the President on a personal level. A couple of them came up to me and let me know that they would make him answer to their version of the truth no matter how long it takes. I asked one lunatic a simple question.
“Once the President is out of office, and does not have his power, why not just leave him be?”
I then heard descriptions of how President Bush is Hitler, and how evil must be dealt with.
I immediately walked away from this monster of a woman. I do not dialogue with anybody that compares President Bush to Hitler. Some people like to say, “Yeah, Hitler was smarter.” That liberal smugness needs a violent response, but even that would not knock decency into these hatemongers. Hitler tried to kill my dad.
A few minutes later I spoke to Mr. Reiner myself. I requested an interview, and he said he would do it. He knew my leanings based on my public question, but I promised him that he would be treated fairly. He agreed to do the interview, and I hope he keeps his word. I understand he is busy, but he made a promise. People who lambaste the President for lying need to be extra sensitive to their own veracity.
The one thing that irked Reiner was my liking of President Bush. He let me know that, so as we were walking, I asked him if he was familiar with te episode of “South Park,” that skewers him. His exact response was, “Oyyyy…my son loved it.”
We walked to the elevator, since we were leaving at the same time. The crazy woman joined us. Three people were in a slow elevator. The woman told Mr. Reiner that I was refusing to speak with her, as if Mr. Reiner should care about that. I pointed out that I do not speak to people declaring Bush to Hitler. The woman denied she made the comments, but Mr. Reiner seemed to see through her.
He emphatically responded, “President Bush should never be compared to Hitler. There was only one Hitler. Hitler is Hitler. Nobody else is Hitler.”
It was the second time that night I saw good in him that I would not have expected, based on my uninformed opinion of him.
Yet when the woman walked away, Reiner switched back to what I expected on a different level. He was still not happy that I did not see the treason angle. He feels that President Bush leaked the name of Valerie Plame, which in Mr. Reiner’s mind is treason.
I did not realize it, but I then started arguing with Rob Reiner. We were not shouting, but we were having a passionate discussion at a larger than normal decibel level.
Reiner: “Bush leaked Valerie Plame. He should go to jail.”
Me: “It was Richard Armitage who leaked it. He said he did it. If you have an objection, it should be with Armitage and Colin Powell.”
Reiner: “All of them leaked it, including Cheney, Libby and Rove. They all leaked it at different times. I want those that leaked her name and lied about it to go to jail.”
Me: “Ok, then let’s place Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame in jail now. They leaked it themselves. This was a covert agent that posed for Vanity Fair.”
At this point, Mr. Reiner came very close to crossing the line. He is a celebrity, but respect goes both ways. His next point was technically right, but he misunderstood me. He was wrong overall.
“That was after. Vanity Fair was after. That’s intellectually dishonest. If you’re going to blog, you have to be honest about it.”
While Mr. Reiner was absolutely correct that Vanity Fair came after, he missed my point. I believe this was unintentional. Vanity Fair was an isolated incident, but it was also part of a pattern for a couple that were attention and limelight sluts. From the very beginning, they were publicity seekers. Valerie Plame was not covert. Her neighbors knew where she worked.
“Mr. Reiner, covert people do not spend their lives making themselves public.”
At that point we reached both of our cars. While I know little about cars, Mr. Reiner’s car was ordinary. This is meant as a positive description. He was not driving a stretch limousine or some ostentatious monstrosity. It fit in with my view of him as passionate, completely wrong, but not insincere or hypocritical.
The last thing I said to him was, “Mr. Reiner, we won’t agree on this, but here’s one more handshake for the road. Take care, and be well. I look forward to the interview.”
I did not realize until I drove away that I basically had a pretty heated political argument with Rob Reiner.
While I am disappointed that he associates himself with the angry Bush hating left, I was relieved that he stopped short of embracing their worst cancerous elements. His refusing to link Bush to Hitler was not about appearances. He genuinely believed it. This is the difference between somebody saying that a line of behavior is “not helpful,” as opposed to “just plain wrong.”
I guess I would say that he is slightly less wacked out politically than I thought he was.
He is on many levels a better person than I thought he was.
I believe that he believes what he is saying. He is wrong, but sincere.
I do not regret meeting him.
eric
Outting Plame was treason. I don’t believe Armitage was alone (or even instrumental in the leak). Plame was designated as “covert.” That’s all that matters. It was treason and all involved should be punished to the full extent of the law.
I guess conservatives only subscribe to the notion that we are a “nation of laws” when it suits them.
JMJ
Jersey, By your definition, then, both Pelosi and Carter committed treason…along with a slew of other hate-mongering democraps.
Eric – nice work – you give Reiner too much credit. Just because he says President Bush isn’t Hitler doesn’t diminish the fact that he is a wack job.
JMJ;
” Plame was designated as “covert.” That’s all that matters”
Yea well, if you designate Paris hilton as “covert” she cant run around and bitch when she flashes her hoohaa.
Just because you designate someone as covert shouldnt they maintain some element of stealth or ambiguity?
Gimme a break, the broad was all over the map as CIA.
She walked in and out the front doors every morning for Gods sake.
Covert, my a$$, agent 99
JMJ;
“I guess conservatives only subscribe to the notion that we are a “nation of laws” when it suits them.”
This is one of the dumbest things anyone on any side of the isle can ever say.
Regardless, it seems like the libs say it more than anyone and conveniently forget all the laws broken on their side also.
I think the woman in the elevator was actually Raiders owner Al Davis in drag.
Eric.
I’ve met a lot of celebs and have always been taken back by how different they are than usually percieved.
Most of them have been genuinely nicer than I previously thought.
Although at 12 years old Leonard Nimoy refused to perform a mind melt on me.
What I find amusing about Reiner is that he sounds just as whiney as he was as “meathead”.
It seems like he didnt have to reach too deep to fulfill the role he played.
Eagle, how the heck can you possible draw such a comparison? How does a private citizen or the speaker of the house visiting foreign heads of state compare to outting a CIA agent??? And if you feel that’s the case, then therefore you must feel that the treason was committed in the Plame case, right??? Or is this just more conservative moral equivication??? Am I missing something here???
Micky, in what the hecvk kind of comic book universe do conservatives reside??? What? Do you think it’s like Get Smart and they all operate perpetually incognito in underground bunkers testing their laser pens???
You guys are unbelievable sometimes. And what really gets to me – if Bill Clinton did what George Bush did, you have screamed bloody murder and would have long since seen him impeached. The hypocrisy is nauseating.
JMJ
JMJ;
“Micky, in what the hecvk kind of comic book universe do conservatives reside??? What? Do you think it’s like Get Smart and they all operate perpetually incognito in underground bunkers testing their laser pens???”
First of all, this statement just goes to show that liberals truly do lack a sense of humor as much as they take themselves too seriously.
The sarchasim was directed at Plame and hubby for over playing the “covert hand’
Valerie Plame was as about as covert as Mickey Mouse.
Its so huilarious that they keep going on and on about her being “outed” when she has been out forever.
They are the ones who are trying to make it sound as if she was some covert operative in triple undercover of some sorts.
As far as Bill goes, he lied and confessed to it.
As far as Bush goes, you accuse him of lying and cant prove it and he wont confess because he has no reason to.
I see absolutly no hypocrisy in that comparison.
Clinton should be convicted simply for dereliction of duty for his ignoring the Osama threat.
Jersey, There is no comparison. The “private citizen” is former President of the United States. As such, the foreign countries and our citizenry can infer that he is somehow representative of the United States. Likewise, Pelosi IS respresentative of the citizenry… they both violated Presidential sanctions. Regardless whether one hates the man, or whether one believes he’s doing a good job or not – he is THE POTUS.
And Jersey.
Eagle said it was by your definition, not his.
Eagle;
Jersey, By your definition, then, both Pelosi and Carter committed treason…along with a slew of other hate-mongering democraps.”
With or without Eagles suggestion on your part I do agree that Pelosi was kissing the wrong butts.
Shes a leader in the Democratic party and the U.S. Congress iand willingly traveled to Syria, a terrorism-sponsoring state to shake hands with a leader of that state and kiss his wife on the cheek. Also during that trip, she willingly choosing to put on clothing that symbolizes submission to Allah.
Now, what do you think would happen if Assad went to rome and kissed the Popes ring ?
Do you see the connection ?
She flew halfway around the world to express solidarity with a terrorist-sponsoring state.
Thats pretty treasonous if you ask me.
Syria is just Irans “mini me” and we all know it.
Eagle, show me the laws Pelosi and Carter broke. Really. I’d love to see them.
I’ve never heard of any such laws.
As for outting a CIA agent – that IS in fact treason.
JMJ
She wasnt “outted” Jersey.
It was no big secret.
What cover was blown ?
The Logan Act has remained almost unchanged and unused since its passage. The act is short and reads as follows:
Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.
Micky, she was officially a covert CIA agent. She was outted. That is treason. You guys just don’t care about treason as long as it’s your guys committing it.
So then, Micky, by that standard, when American oil companies make deals with foreign governments, they are then breaking the law, right?
JMJ
Micky, Thanks for the quick response… You always provide more detail…my assumptive response was simply, “Logan Act”… but you have a knack for details! I was out for a bit…
Jersey, oil companies aren’t making political deals – they are doing business. And, the government has a hand in the negotiations… ah ha!! Now we can hammer BOB…Big Oil Bush… (smiley faced doohicky thingie)…
Its not the same thing.
The oil companies do not employe American foreign policy.
You’re grabbing at straws here, you look pathetic.
Yea, that officiality of Plames was held up real well.
If she was so official than why was she flashing her CIA hoohaa everywhere ?
Oh my God !
Valeries has been outted, quick , into the bunker !!!!!!!!!
How did her supposed outting hurt us ?
Sandy berger ?
Now that ! Is treason !
What happened ?
The freaking Dems put him back to work !
It is surprising how some will never admit the truth when it is obvious. Plame was outed by Armitage. He admits this and so does Novack. Rove was asked to respond to a question posed by a reporter – the reporter already had the information. Plame was not an active covert agent, as her name was leaked by Aldrich Ames and she was then benched. Wilson himself outed her, if one can constantly be outed…Still, it a trial was held and an extensive investigation found that no crime was done except Libby’s “perjury” and even that is debatable.
Eagle and Micky, Pelosi and Carter “aren’t making political deals” either. That’s the whole point. By your inane standard yes: those oil companies are making political deals. But not only that, some of them are willing to make oil deals with the Iraqi government, before they finish the Oil Law over there, even at the risk of US casualties sparking from such deals. But you guys are cool with all that. So whatever.
jweaver, either you were personally there when every event happened regarding the Plame affair, or you know no more about it than I. Personally, I think you’re looking at it too simplistically. And Plame was a classified name, period. Didn’t you watch the hearings? I thought you were there for everything.
JMJ
Liberals are this, Conservatives are that…blah, blah, blah…
Eric discovered some genuine moments of sanity and decorum with Reiner…that’s a good thing…two guys respectfully arguing over something that impassions them both…never (according to the article) beginning sentences with “you liberals”…or “you conservatives.”
I disagreed with Reiner even when I was a proud Democrat…though, I always got the feeling he was an individual of some depth and truly cared about the issues he supported.
That being said…Treason? Absurd, absolutely absurd…
Is it a wonder that most of the accusations against President Clinton are just that, accusations…and the same goes for President Bush… Who has been vindicated (One would never know…) by a bipartisan report of the U.S. Senate Committee on Intelligence as well as the Butler Report. Joe Wilson lied time after time…to the Senate…
Plame? I really don’t care…What I do know is there are always folks on both sides of the aisle salivating at any opportunity to destroy those on the other side.
President Bush guilty of treason? Meathead Time…
JMJ;
“Eagle and Micky, Pelosi and Carter “aren’t making political deals” either. That’s the whole point. By your inane standard yes: those oil companies are making political deals. But not only that, some of them are willing to make oil deals with the Iraqi government, before they finish the Oil Law over there, even at the risk of US casualties sparking from such deals. But you guys are cool with all that. So whatever.”
No, oil companies make business deals with the expressed permission of the United States.
Read the Logan act dude.
It says in plain english that Pelosi and Carter should not of done what they did with out permission. “Any correspondance or intercourse”
Plain english, black and white.
Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.
Brian, Clinton has a past that dictates his failures
Bush is crucified before his term is even over. And as Iraq progresses, its never enough for the libs to just sit down and shut up.
As far as Plame goes, yea , who cares.
If this were a theft charge Plames so called outting would be the equivalent of a stick of gum.
As opposed to Berger hiding evidence of Clintons failutres
“Plame? I really don’t care…”
If it was you, would you then care? I would just like to see one conservative stand up and say, “Yes, outting Plame was a bridge too far, regardless of Wilson or her classification or the war.” It’s really sad. If Clinton did that, you guys would’ve had his head – and mind you, I’m no fan of Clinton’s – I would have wanted his head too. It is I approaching this as black and white, and you as conservative and liberal (How’s that for a change?). For you it’s okay if a “conservative” breaks the law (like Ollie North, I would assume). Everyone else can go swim to Guantanamo.
JMJ
Oh, and this whole “sanity and decorum” shtick is a farce. It’s okay if you lie, commit treason, abuse the public trust – as long you maintain “sanity and decorum,” right? They say the Devil has taste, ya’ know. Doesn’t make ’em good.
JMJ
Micky, the oil companies are taking advantage of loopholes in the law well beyond just Logan. One of the reasons they’re considering moving before the “Oil Law” is to avoid future binding legal implications here as well as there. And it goes way beyond that. Yet what it really boils down to is that the US Government is complicit, by neglect, in allowing these companies to consider deals that could be a detriment to our troops. Once again – treason.
JMJ
JMJ;
” it was you, would you then care?
Like I said. but for some reason stuff seems to skip your mind.
First I asked you;
“How did her supposed outting hurt us ?’
I also said;
“If this were a theft charge Plames so called outting would be the equivalent of a stick of gum.”
So if it were me I really wouldnt worry too much.
Also.
The case has run its case in court and the only crime determined to of been commited was Scooters perjury.
So please, drop it.
But if you want to talk treason I have posted in black and white the law that clearly defines Pelosi and Carter as being treasonous.
You have nothing, again.
JMJ;
“It’s really sad. If Clinton did that, you guys would’ve had his head ”
Well, that brings Sandy Berger into the picture now doesnt it ?
I’m sure Sandy wasnt hiding, stealing and destroying highly classified documents from the national archives for his health.
Not only did you hear cries of foul from the left. They hired him again.
So please, it works both ways, truly.
But the Valerie Plame case is about as weak an example of treason that there is.
JMJ;
“Yet what it really boils down to is that the US Government is complicit, by neglect, in allowing these companies to consider deals that could be a detriment to our troops. Once again – treason.”
Oh !
So now the whole U.S. government is treasonous ?
Those deals “could be” but they are not.
It is our troops who are protecting those deals in the interest of you being able to drive your Ford Taurus and power your TV so you can watch C-span
Not only did you”NOT” hear cries of foul from the left. They hired him again.
JMJ
You have no idea who I am or what I believe in…
One ought to at the very least be able to glean a few things from my contributions to this blog…
1) Until recently I was a Democrat…
2) I’m not socially conservative.
It’s very difficult to believe Valerie Plame was “outted” by President Bush etc… Armitage ( a fierce critic of the so-called “Neo-cons”) took responsibility for the leak. Robert Novak ( No-friend of the “Neocons” either), has corroborated his story…
What don’t you get?
In terms of your loose versions of “treason” hah, hah, hah…get a clue. Micky gave it to you!
So if Carter and Pelosi violated the Logan Act, what about the other congressmen who also visited Syria around the same time, i.e., Robert Aderholt, R-Ala., Frank Wolf, R-Va., Joe Pitts, R-Pa., David Hobson, R-Ohio, and Darrell Issa, R-California? Note the R after each of their names.
Jersey get your FACTS straight.
Valerie Plame was had not been a covert agent for years and was functioning as an overt employee of the CIA. What Armitage “leaked” was that this CIA employee was the one who recommended her husband for the task in Africa, he said nothing about ehr being an “agent.” Armitage did this independently not in any connection with Bush or Cheney. The only thing Rove and Libby confirmed was that Valerie Plame was in fact Joe Wilson’s wife.
Finally, even if all that you allege was true (which it isn’t) it does not amount to treason but a violation of a very different specific law. So even if what was done were to have been criminal it would not be TREASON
Another point is violation of the Logan act is not TREASON either. Treason is punisbale by death. Violations of the Logan Act is punishable this way: “shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.”
I get really tired of people using extreme terms to characterize things as worse than they are. Words like Hitler, Treason, Holocaust, Nazi, Misogynist, Racist are way over used and inappropriately used. It really waters down what the words truly represent and where they came from.
Torture is another of misused words.
Parrothead – agree with your assessment – I threw out the word “treason” because the term was on the table, and as Micky pointed out, I qualified my statement…bottom line, the legal definition of treason is waging war against the US and/or providing aid and comfort to the enemy… yes, it would be a stretch to convict different politicians and media personnel for committing treason, but strong arguments can be made that there have been many incidents that both have provided comfort and aid to the enemy.
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Reiner is right. High crimes. Scotty was right and now the Senate Intell Committee rept.
Former Bush counter-terrorism director, Richard Clark on MSNBC comments on the new Senate Intelligence Committee Report on Iraq pre-war intelligence. —
“Statements by the president were not substantiated by intelligence … statements by the president were contradicted by available intelligence. In other words, they made things up. They made them up and gave them to Colin Powell and others, who believed them. I think Colin Powell did not know that he was lying, but he was. He was given intelligence that people in the intelligence community at the time, knew were not true. This is not a case of 20/20 hindsight. This is a case of what was available then.”
However, Congress members were not privy to the Presidential Daily Briefing (PDB) and many other intelligence sources. The Bush administration’s public pronouncements concerning Iraq began long before any substantial intelligence analysis arrived on Capitol Hill. Even so, most didn’t read the NIE. Bob Graham did – thats why he spoke out against the case for war.
Quotes are often lifted from Democrats that seem to show a justification or willingness to go to war. WRONG – in the same speeches they warn of dire consequences of launching a unilateral invasion of Iraq. There are many examples of this.
Game over, Bush lied and McCain is screwing himself by now justifying the intelligence claims of the president.
GAME OVER
Yea William.
I guess the thousands of dead Kurds, oil for food scam, and the 1600 times we were fired at in no fly zones was all made up ?
Not to mention the Palestinian suicide bombers sent to Afghanistan by Saddam and was paid for by check.
The “Bush lied ” thing is a bunch of crap that I have disproven time and time again.
Do you really think that the intelligence from 21 different countries was all orchestrated ?
Richard Clark;
““Statements by the president were not substantiated by intelligence … statements by the president were contradicted by available intelligence.”
Thats because we all know that parts of the initial intelligence was flawed.
The “available ” evidence that contradicts Bush was not available until after the fact and months after the invasion.
Bob Graham ?
Please. What would you expect from a democratic senator running for president in 03 ?
Micky, You are right. The “Bush lied” anti-Americans have been disproved from the beginning…there’s a constructive thinking gene missing in many Oprah Dope and their ilk: it takes logic and a moderate amount of intelligence to comprehend sequences of events and an “if this, then that” rationale… many detractors conveniently use a free pass on the “if this” and simply jump to the “then that”…