Once again, a left wing columnist that reflexively dislikes President George W. Bush has decided to criticize him and his administration as supporting torture.
Once again, the Tygrrrr Express has to take on the role of being an unofficial ombudsman to prevent a liberal position from being accepted as truthful.
Below is the article.
Allow me to offer the least delightful passages of the above link before ripping them to shreds in what I can only describe as a mercy killing.
“The story of torture as US government policy is one of the most shameful episodes in American history…”
No, that would be slavery, with the internment of Japanese Americans in World War II coming a close second. Both of those were enacted and enforced by democrats.
“Democrats are scared of appearing weak on terror.”
Gee, I wonder why.
“Even when it was revealed this year that a committee of top Bush administration officials went to Guantanamo to supervise torture, and when the president acknowledged that he knew of and approved of this committee’s work, we were still told by the president a few days later that it was all the responsibility of a few errant soldiers.”
Guantanamo Bay is like the Poconos (Big Bear for those of you not familiar with East Coast Culture), except with nicer weather.
“Finally, though, we have to ask: who are these people? How did a small band of fanatics get themselves into position to so pervert America’s ideals? How did they run roughshod over the protests of those in the military and law enforcement communities who protested, much more than Congress did? Do these people bear some responsibility for their actions for which they should be held to account? Do we?”
Apparently the author does not believe in elections. Then again, perhaps he was referring to Moveon.org, at which point I would completely agree with him. Nobody elected them.
“There is something about torture that is profoundly hostile to Jewish tradition. To me, torture has always gone hand in hand with superstition, the Dark Ages, ignorance, absolute authority, terror, and intolerance. I see the rack, straining horses, and the other tools of official torture. I always associate torture with the Inquisition, which in the old phrase, was not good for the Jews.”
I associated every woman who agreed to meet me for dinner as wishing to have sex with me. Thinking does not make it so.
Without offering any more words from the other column, which truly would be torture, here is some piercing logic.
The arguments made in the other column are disingenuous. Examples of “Torture” include the rack, thumbscrews, and cutting off limbs and other body parts. The United States does not behead people, nor do we burn our enemies with cigarettes. I wish our enemies were as civilized and decent as we are.
Coercive interrogation methods save lives. Stress positions, altering room temperatures, sleep deprivation, and playing loud music are not torture.
As for waterboarding, the United States has never killed anybody using this method. It has only been used on three people, one of them being 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheik Mohammed. This broke him, and led to the disruption of other plots.
The occurrences such as Abu Gharaib were less serious than what kids suffer at various Summer camps, and college students suffer at fraternities. Our soldiers gave the prisoners the equivalent of “wet willies” or “zerberts.” Nevertheless, we conducted an investigation, and the people responsible were punished. We also apologized. I am still waiting for the murderers of Daniel Pearl to apologize.
We are nothing like our enemies. We are not even close. We do not torture. We do use coercive interrogation methods.
Personally, I think we should force the terrorists to listen to Helen Reddy sing, “I am woman, hear me roar.” On so many levels, that would be justice. Even liberals would not find this a violation of the eight amendment.
I once asked former Presidential Candidate Mitt Romney why we shouldn’t just simply have a public list of what does and does not constitute torture. Like abortion, guns, and other issues, there are shades of gray. Why not just make the issue black and white?
Mr. Romney’s answer was perfect, and it instantly swayed me.
He pointed out that my suggestion to define torture would tell our enemies exactly what we did and did not do. We have to leave the language ambiguous to keep our enemies off balance.
While this answer might not satisfy people who want clearly defined parameters, Mr. Romeny’s answer is still sensible and correct.
Besides, my father used to tell me that the music I listened to tortured him and my mother. My attitude was that if rock music was good enough to bring down Manuel Noriega, it was good enough for me to have a small amount of power in a house that was never a democracy.
One issue that is rarely discussed is the issue of turning a blind eye to the practices of our allies. If we have a captured terrorist, and he refuses to talk, could and should we turn him over to an ally, such as Pakistan, that may use harsh interrogation techniques, and perhaps, even real torture?
Sure. Absolutely. At the very least, this should be a bargaining chip. After all, once we walk out of the room, our hands are sparkling clean. Many mothers simply tell the child that things will get ugly when their father gets home. The message gets through.
Plus, liberals love a humble foreign policy. Who are we to tell other nations not to torture terrorists? Their countries have their laws. They are unconstrained by the ACLU. I wonder what that must be like.
The terrorists do not distinguish between liberal democrats and conservative republicans. They want to kill us all. It would be nice if liberals would stop helping them achieve their objectives.
Americans are good people. We do not torture. We use coercive interrogation methods, and we save lives.
As an American who wants to win the Global War on Terror, which again is Islamofacism, I accept the thanks of the world. You are more than welcome.
eric
“The occurrences such as Abu Gharaib were less serious than what kids suffer at various Summer camps ”
Before the invasion prisoners at Abu Gharaib complained of over crowded conditions.
Saddams solution was to simply kill then all.
I think you guys just plain miss the boat when it comes to Abu Gharaib or Guantanamo. Regardless of whether or not you consider the occurances at these facilities “torture,” regardless of whether or not you can convince anyone of your narrow argument, the real argument is existential and hotly debated by entrenched interests throughout the world. This is not about “torture” – it’s about using foreign facilities to hold a new class of prisoners (“enemy combatants”) who supposedly exist without rights because they are neither representative foreign nationals nor are under US juristiction. On top of that, this is a socio-political issue, especially in the case of Abu Gharaib, a facility that was already infamous during the Hussein regime. Utilizing that facility was stupid, stupid, stupid.
You guys see the argument as “What is torture?” People around the world are asking, “Who the hell are you to ask?” The answer, in my opinion, is that you shouldn’t have to ask that question in the first place. With all due respect, I believe you neocons are overextending and abusing American power.
JMJ
The Thunder Run has linked to this post in the – Web Reconnaissance for 07/02/2008 A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day…so check back often.
I agree the Abgrass ordeal was stupid, and I also concur with coercive interrogation methods. The loudest protesters might consider opening their homes to these unfortunates and provide the care they think they deserve…whoops, that would mean someone is responsible and/or accountable…can’t have that. I miss Molly Ivins – she was always really good at admonishing, “Someone ought to do something”…
Christopher Hitchens tested his belief that waterboarding is not torture and wrote about it here: http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/08/hitchens200808. The Air Force this week declassified its training course on enhanced interrogation techniques, including the information that the course was a Communist Chinese torture manual used on American servicemen during the Korean War. The story here: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/02/us/02detain.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1215026775-I7jDEV6ekDU87c85n7fwpw. Check these things out and then let us know if you still think waterboarding and other “enhanced interrogation techniques” aren’t torture.
I think I miss Molly a little more. Volume of protesters voiceboxes aside, I don’t want to live with a Muslim extremist any more than any other liberal, secular thinker. I wouldn’t want to be stuck with a Christian extremist either. I don’t care for extremists.
I’m glad you recognize, Eagle, the stupidity of Abu Abgrass (very funny, by the way). I would say that is a typical example of poor presidential stewardship of the “war on terror.” During WWII, there were spies and agents and saboteurs running around all over the place. Roosevelt, a great president, quietly and effectively took care of the problem. He never played the fear card – he was never stupid enough to parade prisoners for year after year for political gain. It’s disgusting and it’s stupid. Even today’s historically conservative SCOTUS realizes this.
JMJ
“Coercive Interrogation is not Torture”
This is your opinion but evidence is to the contrary. See the two links I sent, one to Christopher Hitchens’ article and the other the the NYT article on the Air Force’s “enhanced interrogation” program.
Roosevelt and the enemies we had the time are a bad comparison.
The court recently only gave these guys the right to challenge the title and term of their custody and the right to contest it.
The SCOTUS did not say we should let them go or define what kind of enemy they are.
Hah, the post is about torture and you’re crying about Abu Gharaub and say you miss the president who opened all the Japanese re-location camps ?
I’m not “crying” about anything, and I’m nopt commending the Japanese internments – all I’m saying is that Abu Gharaib was stupid (and Roosevelt didn’t play the Fear Card, because he was a great man, not a slobbola). The people in charge of this stupid war have done a lousy job of it, and the buck stops with George W Bush.
JMJ
Mark, Not sure the difference between Eric and my “opinions” versus the “evidence” you cite…I would suggest both are opinions, so torture may be in the eye of the beholder…or the beheader…I’ll opt for the former and leave true torture to the latter…
Jersey – I realize W is the commander in chief, but there are so darn many layers of responsibility between him and the many issues he’s accused of being irresponsible…like platoon sergeants, platoon leaders, company commanders, battalion commanders, brigade commanders, division commanders, corps commanders, area commanders, State Department, DA civilians, Congress, Sec Army, Sec Def, CoS, et al… the biggest difference between Roosevelt and Bush is the media in Roosevelt’s time was somewhat respectful and was unified in defeating the threat of Japanese and Nazi hordes… today, the media doesn’t recognize the threat and is complacent in their freedoms, which leads them to corrupt the core of our freedoms. The people who established our free country understoond responsibility and accountability. Our media do not.
“and Roosevelt didn’t play the Fear Card, because he was a great man, not a slobbola”
Yea right. I think locking up evey Japanese in sight , even American Japanese citizens was playing the fear card to most extreme I’ve ever seen.
I guess the only thing in your eyes that would make Bush a great man like Roosevelt would be to lock up everyone in America who looks middle eastern ?
I’m sure if people voiced their dissent in those days like they do today Roosevelt would of got a ear full of it.
Abu Gharaib to me was just a building in use that had a bad history on the part of Saddam.
Should we of kept them in tents untill we found a nice place for them ?
It was a convenient inanimate object. The atrocities would took place with or without it.
When the military acknowledges that its program for enhanced interrogation comes from Communist China’s program in the Korean War, and when we then considered it to be torture, how can it not be torture now?
I haven’t “tried” waterboarding myself, so I have to go on what my common sense and intellect tell me about it. Hitchens is no fuzz-headed knee-jerk liberal (as I am) – he’s Mr. Gun Ho as far as the GWOT is concerned. If, after experiencing it, he says it is torture (when he heretofore has been in favor of enhanced interrogation techniques) my common sense and intellect tell me that there’s more than a good chance that any objective test as to what is torture would be met by waterboarding.
Maybe we should get a group of people (Senators, GWB, Cheney, you and me) all together somewhere and have whoever was administering waterboarding at Gitmo give it to us, so we can see. I don’t usually insist on “personal, empirically verifiable knowledge/proof” of everything I believe – none of us could live if we did, BTW – but maybe some of us would need this “first-hand” experience in order to decide whether WB is torture.
Of course, if it IS torture and we think it should be used in Gitmo and the GWOT, that raises other issues.
“fuzz-headed knee-jerk liberal” should have been “fuzzy-headed knee-jerk liberal”
Mark, You have provided a solid response. From my foxhole, the difference between torture and enhanced interrogation techniques is the willingness and/or propensity to take it further. In other words, we may be arrogant Americans by scaring suspected terrorists/criminals with these techniques, because we know what our limit is; while the “interrogee” will not – which is why the techniques are effective. On the other hand, I don’t believe the Communist Chinese had this self-imposed limit. Again, you have given far too logical arguments to be considered a fuzzy-headed liberal, but I am still in favor of using certain means to get information if it saves lives…it wouldn’t be the first time there has been a sacrifice of one for the benefit of the masses…(ok, maybe that one was a little over the top!)…smiley face doohicky thingie…
Perhaps this should really be blown out of proportion – you know, make potential enemies think twice about falling into Great Satan’s clutches
And only 3 murderous creeps wb’d? Oh! The Humanity!