I am in shock as I write this, but a liberal actually brought up a point on my blog that was nothing short of brilliant.
I began blogging to provoke thought. I take great pride in being the conservative blog that liberals feel welcome to visit. When people step back and listen to each other, constructive dialogue can take place.
As war rages in the Gaza Strip, I maintain that Israel is jusitifed in using as much force as possible, and that any collateral damage should not be a deterrent. Yet comments I made about the Gaza Strip and the West Bank brought a comment that had me thinking very deeply, which again is what dialogue should do.
The issue came up when I mentioned the myth about the “occupied territories.”
I wrote the following.
“There are no ‘occupied’ territories. There are DISPUTED territories. Israel owns the land that it won in the 1967 War. They are building houses on their own land. This bothers some squatters whose only claim is that they try to steal it and reproduce like bunny rabbits, if bunnies were genocidal.”
Heck, I thought that comment was pretty d@ng funny. Nevertheless, the response I received on this point was solid.
“If Israel owned the land then they should claim it as their’s. You’re making a bogus argument here. Israel won’t claim the land because they don’t want it as part of their national territory (yet), because then the Palestinians would become a real competitive political bloc in the Parliament. If Israel is to be a democracy, and they “owned” the West Bank and Gaza, then Israel would have to accept another 4 million Palestinians into the body politic. Oddly enough, 3 out of 4 Israeli Arabs say they would rather live in Israel than anywhere else in the world. Citizenship for all the people’s of the Occupied Territories, would probably go a long way toward ending the violence. It would also bring to an end the problem of settlements, as the question would then be moot. But no, Israel does NOT own the Occupied Territories because it claims NO ownership. Israel is complicit in maintaining the status quo, and so shares that part of the blame for this endless violence.”
For the sake of full disclosure, the above reader is a regular commenter who disagrees with me most of the time. I think he is wrong on almost every issue. I think he is especially wrong on Israel issues. Having said that, while I have never met him personally, I have interacted with him privately for over a year, and he is absolutely not an anti-Semite. Many people try to hide behind anti-Israel sentiment to hide anti-Semitism, and I am prepared to put my credibility on the line and say this guy does not have evil intentions towards Jews or Israel.
I have said for a long time that when you win a war you keep the land. Yet Israel refuses to claim ownership of the land. Why?
The answer is because Israel is a democracy. If they claim the land, then the people living on the land would have to be given rights. One of these rights is the right to vote.
If Palestinians were given the right to vote, Israel as a Jewish state would be dead. Arabs already make up 20% of Israel. Israel does not need that number to go higher.
The difference in the Middle East between Jews and Arabs is that Arabs have other places to go. Israeli Arabs could move to any one of 22 other Nations. They choose not to do so. They secretly understand that for all of the ranting and raving in the Arab world, there is not one Israeli Arab that wants to give up living in a democracy.
Isaraelis have no options. They have 22 nations that want to kill them. They have nowhere to go.
Make no mistake about it. I have no love for Palestinians. I think that most of them are subhuman garbage, with a small percentage possessing something moderately resembling human qualities. Yet I also believe in democracy and liberty. If Palestinians living in Israel are not committing crimes (a small number, but more than zero), then don’t they deserve the same legal rights?
One analogy is what Americans did in World War II by placing Japanese Americans in internment camps. A heartbreaking movie called “Come See The Paradise” has a wrenching scene where a white man screams at anybody who will listen, “My wife is an American citizen!”
What was done to Japanese Americans was disgusting. It was bigotry. It was also wrong. They were Americans, and they were not trying to subvert the United States from within.
The Palestinian situation is not analogous. Most of the Palestinians are subversive. They are an enemy within. They would destroy Israel as a Jewish state at the first possible opportunity.
So Israel is in a lose-lose situation. They either give the enemy the keys to destroying Israel, or they deny them equality.
Some will say that Israel should simply deport them all to Jordan or Syria. Personally, I would love that option. I would also like the Israeli Arabs to be kicked out of Israel.
The problem is that this will never happen.
Arab countries have an advantage. They are not bound by the laws of civility. For those that want to separate moderate Arab nations from the murderous regimes, there are no moderate Arab nations. Those countries are just more stealth.
In the same way that America is hampered in the War on Terror because the terrorists have no constraints, Israel has constraints as a democratic nation. It is not fair, but most of life is unfair.
I absolutely reject the last sentence of the reader stating that Israel is complicit in the violence. Yet the rest of the argument does have merit.
Again, the best solution of claiming the land and removing the inhabitants by force, while totally justified based on what Arabs have done to Jews for centuries, will never happen.
Perhaps Jews can relocate all Palestinians from the West Bank to Gaza. Some will say this is cruel, but these same people do not have a problem recommending that the Jews leave the West Bank.
Even the argument that Israel has never officially “claimed” the West Bank and Gaza has a flaw. The Palestinians have even less of a claim. Remember, Arabs claim the entire land of Israel as Palestine. Wishing and murdering to carry out wishes does not make it so.
Nobody has suffered more than the Jews. The Palestinians do not even come close. Remember, the Palestinians were murdered en masse by their Arab brethren. Jordan murdered one million of them. Also, the Palestinians are led by agitators. They are not innocent victims. The Jews murdered by German Nazis truly were blameless.
So what happens next?
I genuinely have no idea.
Do I wish we lived in a world without Palestinians? As much as they want a world without Jews, a resounding yes. However, wishes in the sky are still not realities on the ground.
So what can Israel do?
They can claim the land of the West Bank as Israel proper. The Palestinian squatters in the West Bank can apply for Israeli citizenship, which takes about 10 years in the United States. During those 10 years they will be interviewed, and strict checks will take place continuously. If by some miracle they obey the law, they can then get citizenship. Any violations of the law result in deportation to Gaza.
That way Israel can claim the land without having to give them voting rights.
Some will say that is diabolical. No it isn’t. They act like humans, they get human rights. They act like savages, they get treated like savages.
After all, there would be no problems in Gaza or the West Bank if the Palestinians would just somehow observe normal people and imitate them. The internet exists. If they can learn how to make bombs, they can watch American sitcoms where nobody blows anything up except the ratings.
While it is cynical to place these conditions knowing that the Palestinians will fail, that is their fault. Heck, they could act normal just to spite the Israelis. That way they could be spiteful in a non-genocidal manner and get privileges that non-genocidal people get worldwide.
The only thing I know is that there are no “occupied” territories.
The land will belong to Israel the millisecond that they claim it.
Then the really hard work begins.
eric
“If by some miracle they obey the law, they can then get citizenship. Any violations of the law result in deportation to Gaza.”
The only problem is the deep seeded hate for Jews that is a learned behavior and handed down to generations in Palestinian families.
Ten years from now a ten year old Palestinian boy will of had instruction on how evil and rotten the Jews are from his parents and peers. His parents will of taken advantage of what you offer for there own benefit but will still have lingering resentments and prejudice that has been ingrained in them for decades, and will reflect that upon their children.
This is why I’ve brought up the example of how long it took before Americans/whites even began to give the black man break.
Even after civil rights movements and laws of equality were passed the black man was still subjected to hate and racism.
Some also say that if these Palestinians had some hope or means to live above substandard lives they would lose their bigoted tendencies.
B.S. This is just saying that if they receive payment they’ll stop terrorizing you. Its extortion.
In today’s world there are just as many people who are well off and have great financial means that are just as bigoted and racist as those in poverty.
So, I think your idea is very nobel but you’d just be setting yourself up for more of the same except this time it would be worse as the trouble would grow within and be coming directly from within the community making it even more difficult to weed out and deal with should any uprising begin.
Radical Islam has a well documented habit of permeating societies and being very patient until it finally decides to strike.
Faces from the Front Line.
http://israelisoldiersmother.blogspot.com/2009/01/images-they-show.html
Eric,
Who owns what and who wants to live where is not the point. Politics in Israel is not the point. Open civil dialog with liberals is useless. Dialog and or deploymacy is useless. Hasn’t any one been paying attention? The Arabs want to “Wipe Israel from the face of the earth.” I believe that was stated as part of their agenda. The Arabs will not stop ever. They will terrorize and murder any and all who do not believe the way they believe.
We are about to enter an era of “Oh please like me and sit a talk with me about us” foreign policy. Obamunism is on the horizon and I believe Israel is in big trouble if it relies on the U.S. for support.
The USA is on the road to self-distruction. The Federal Government has out grown its usefulness. Congress can not help the economy, because it is the major problem with the economy. The woes we are facing were created by the U.S. Congress. No amount of money will save us. When the USA goes down so goes Israel.
A “correction” is afoot. Retail prices for every thing we buy are so high that the citizens of this country can no longer afford to operate their households. People can not afford a 20k automobile that won’t last 3 or 4 years. But that is what is available. GM and the UAW has priced itself out of affordability and they will cease to exist. The purchaser is not purchasing because he does not have the means. For example.
As you know I’m a one man oil field consulting firm. Not many people do what I do so I am usually in demand. But 2008 was far below average for me. My firm grossed about 90k. After operating expenses and taxes my net was less than 50k. I put 70k miles on my GMC in 2008. It was costly in repairs. But I will not spend the 20k plus for a new truck. I will continue to drive the truck that is paid for.
I will spend only what I must to continue to operate. That is the mind set of most purchasers and purchasers drive this economy.
But then every thing I have said is moot if Yellowstone blows.
Toma
Watonga,OK
Cool! I get to be part of a post!
The problem the Palestinians have is that none of the other Arab nations want them. If you recall, Jordan did try to accept them (historically, the West Bank was once a part of Jordan), but the Palestinians attempted a coup against King Hussein. Then the Palestinians went to Lebanon, and that once prosperous country has been in shambles ever since. So much for that. The Egyptians don’t want the Gazans. The Jordanians don’t want the West Bankers. The Lebanese wish they’d never heard of any of them. Israel doesn’t want either of them. Meanwhile, the despots in Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, etc, use the Palestinians as a poltical strawman to divert the attention of the Arab street from their crooked rulers.
So where does that leave the Palestinians?
I disagree with the writer here that most of the Palestinians harbor some irrational malevolence toward Israel. Plenty of them live in Israel and get along just fine. Historically, they lived side by side with the Jews in relative peace and harmony for hundreds of years. Palestinian merchants, professionals and tradesmen want peace just as much as any Israeli. They just want to make their money and ply their trades. It’s the unskilled, disenfranchised “unwashed” masses of the Palestinians that are the problem. This group is a relatively new demographic. Historically, most Palestinians were educated and rather erudite people. But after years of this messy “occupation” they have been reduced to a Third World wreck. As the occupation continues, this group snowballs out of control.
I see no way out of this but to pull the Israeli settlements and force a realistic geogrpahic vacuum for the Palestinians to form a contiguous state of their own. Then they will have only themselves to blame or applaud.
JMJ
Jersey.
They cant be that close to Israel whether they produce a functioning profitable society or not.
The delusion that Israel is theirs will always go hand in hand with their hatred for Jews.
They will always attempt their push into Israel.
Whats really scary is if they do become a robust economy and can actually afford a serious military.
You overestimate the irrationality of the Palestinians, Micky. They are human beings just like you and I.
JMJ
Jersey,
You don’t understand the Muslem. I was in direct contact with Arab Muslems in the 60’s, Kenya, Ethiopia, Egypt and Sudan. They treated non Muslems with contempt, as if we were deceased and could contaminate them. We were not quality humans to them. They would tolerate non-Muslems when to their advantage. Otherwise not.
The Muslems I see in the news casts every day are the same Muslems I saw in Africa. They are not human beings like you and I.
Toma,
Watonga,OK
Jersey, you can say what you want but I’ve been watching these people for about 40 years or as long as I could comprehend what was going on with them. In that 40 years nothing about their approach or attitude has changed.
Not all human beings are just like you and I.
I know liberals would like to think that if everyone on earth could just tie in every one thing we had in common we would all get along.
keep dreaming.
As soon as everyone wakes up to the situation as its been presentd for 60 years the sooner it will end.
But no.
Like fools they keep this delusion alive that one day it will work.
Maybe one day it will work. But so far all the experimentation and attempts have yielded misery.
Its like a bad marriage where the couple wont agree that it just wont work and they keep trying and each time it gets more and more violent.
And then when you do get a divorce the b*tch keeps pulling a Fatal Attraction on you.
Like Clint Eastwood, we need to just kill the broad already.
Toma,
You should never ass-u-me what I do and don’t understand.
I’ve known plenty of Muslims. I’m from the NYC area, not Flyoverland USA. They are regular people just like you and I (well, maybe not you, since you seem intent on seeing them as less than human). I fact, I don’t think you know them at all, and if they treaated you with contempt, perhaps it was a reflection of how you looked at them. I happen to know a particular Syrian family pretty well. They are well-to-do, probably much better off than you, and are as secular as I – and I’m an atheist! I know a Lebanese girl who is so sweet, so beautiful, so kind hearted, you’d chop off your left leg just for a kiss. I’ve known Indian and Pakistani Muslims who are the most industrious, friendly, and educated people you’d ever want to meet. I’ve known Palestinians who you’d never even know were Palestinians unless they told you. So either you don’t know them or you are just a bigot.
—
“Not all human beings are just like you and I.”
I’ve got news for you, Micky, by definition, yes, they are.
JMJ
Jersey,
You prove my point. Name calling? I’m a bigot from backwardville way out here in the “Fly over”. Therefore “I” don’t understand??
Toma,
Fly-over USA
Micky;
“:Not all human beings are just like you and I.”
JMJ;
I’ve got news for you, Micky, by definition, yes, they are.
By whos definition ?
Yours ?
Certainly not in the definition that applies here. Nice try at the semantics and word games again but any schmuck knows exactly what I mean.
Thats the most ignorant thing I’ve ever heard.
If you think I am anything like a murdering terrorist punk then you can go perform intercourse on yourself.
And other than the physicality of it all I am nothing like you.
As a culture these people are nothing like me, maybe you, I dont know, but its a good question because you seem to want to justify what is basic evil by saying its “subjective”.
If some man where pointing a gun at my son and was using his son as a shield so that I could not stop him from hurting my son I would kill both him and his son in a heartbeat to save my boy.
That is the difference between these people and me and dont you ever forget it.
Also, you have never been to Africa, have you ?
You’ve never been amongst an Arab community that has not been effected by or exposed to American values or lifestyle.
What Toma was using as an example is far from what you chose to use an an example to justify a rotten stinking culture that does exist whether you like it or not.
No Jersey, the epitome of stupidity and ignorance is to ever ever ever think that we are all the same, maybe created equally, yes, but never ever turn out the same.
Freaking liberals ! You love to lay claim to everyones uniqueness but when needed to make an argument like this you say we are all the same.
Cant have it both ways, sorry bub.
And then you generalize Toma by assuming you know where he lives (and at the same time told him never to assume anything about you) and say he’s from “flyover country” while being bigoted about people from “flyover country”
You also show your ignorance by trying to make a point that all muslims are like the ones you have met.
Quit while you’re ahead, you’re blowin it bigtime.
Jersy, theres this question.
If we are all so much the same then why has Toma run into a completely different kind of Muslim than the ones you have experienced ?
You say that its maybe becuse of the contempt he had for them that resulted in the way they treated him.
Could it be possible that its the other way around ? And that there are huge Arab/Muslim communities that have contempt for Americans ?
I run into the same thing here in Hawaii with mainland Chinese people.
The Chines that is raised here in the states is pretty much like the average American. The marry out of their race, they dont care about who comes into the family. They are a product of American culture.
The ones that come eher on vacation or have just immigrated from mainlans China are rude, arrogant, selfish and would never ever even entertain the thought of having sex or marrying anyone outside of their own race.
Their culture has made them what they are and nothing like the Muslims you have met in NY or the 5 Chinese girlfriends I’ve had in my life.
And then theres the monsters whithin our own american community.
if we are all so much the same then how can you categorize some as being from ‘flyover’country ? And why do we have skinheads ? Black seperatists ?
No no no buddy, we are not all the same.
Just the fact alone that there are liberals and conservatives should cancel that ridiculous argument right away.
As with the Palestinians, they are a culture that has been bred upon hatred and discrimination and are nothing like the ones you have met who probably moved here to get away from such hatred.
Toma, I didn’t call you anything or guess where you come from. You should try rereading what I wrote. Personally, I don’t think you even know any Muslims.
Micky, people are people, that’s why they’re called “people.” There’s not all that much from one person to another. As for Toma, I think his blanket assertion about Muslims is just plain silly.
JMJ
JMJ;
“Micky, people are people, that’s why they’re called “people.”
DUH ?
Are you and I the same ?
Can you anwer any of my questions as to why the wide spectrum of individual differences there are we see in cultures and induviduals ?
No, because I’m right and you said a stupid thing.
Again.
JMJ;
“Toma, I didn’t call you anything or guess where you come from.”
What another crock.
JMJ;
“So either you don’t know them or you are just a bigot.”
Yea, you can play that game where you say that you actually didnt say that , but anyone who was born yesterday can plainly see that you’re either calling him a liar or a bigot.
There was no blanket assertion. He was talking about a sect of Muslims in Africa
How freaking ignorant does one have to be to assume that he can or cannot believe that someone he knows nothing about actually has or has not met a muslim in his life, or that they are all the same ?
Are they all identical ?
I knew a black Muslim from Chicago who worked for my dad in the 60s. He was the sweetest kindest soul I ever met. At 13 years old I was left with a general impression of Muslims at that point.
And you Jersey are actually going to tell me that all Muslims are like this guy ?
And you have the nerve to tell people that their concepts of reality are flawed and they live in comic book universes ?
Well, if thats true for me then all I can say is that you’re stuck in freaking Alice in wonderland high on about 10 hits of acid if think all people are the same.
Instead of answering questions or indulging in the conversation you go directly to the “Cuz I said so ” mode.
Which basically means you’ve run out of intelligent answers.
people are people.
a rose is a rose.
Brilliant, sheer brilliance.
Web Reconnaissance for 01/09/2009…
A short recon of whats out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day…so check back often….
Fun! Another endless Pali-Israel debate.
I’ll simply reiterate what I’ve said before. Israel needs to set its borders and then enforce them. Recently I’ve come to the conclusion that it should not include the west bank or Gaza. They should announce unilaterally that Pali’s will not be given a contiguous state. They will be given 2 contiguous states. What a deal! Gaza and the west bank will be treated as two separate countries. Let the Pali’s work out the details of government and representation. Heck, it’s like two countries now between Hamas and Fatah. You want to elect one guy to represent both countries? Fine. Whatever. At least Israel won’t be the smallest middle east country in the region any more.
Now, when the inevitable attacks come from the new countries, Israel goes to official war with a country. That country is subject to all the international rules of warfare and Israel can sue for equal treatment. In fact, Israel should sponsor these new countries for recognition in the UN in a gesture of goodwill and brotherhood and a way to get them subjected to the Geneva conventions.
After each war and each imposed peace Israel needs to claim a little extra land. This is ours now. Get back into what you have left. Not too much, just enough for a new settlement to announce that this is now forever part of Israel. If the Pali’s want to continue to make war then they better learn how to build skyscrapers so they have a way to live in the 5 square miles they have left. No, don’t integrate the people of the area into Israel. They lost. Get out. This is ours now. You can’t send them to another country, though, so you have to leave a bit of land.
This is similar to the stalemate we’ve always had except that Israel has to reiterate its UN recognition as a legitimate state and demand that it do the same for the Palestinians. Fight for the right of Palestinians to have their own two countries. It’s a 3 state solution. No right of return. No Jerusalem. Until Israel says definitively, “This is ours. Now and forever”, people will play them. Israel has to get its own house in order and have the Knesset ratify it.