I love Europe.
No, not the continent. That I could care less about. I am referring to the 1980s hard rock band led by Joey Tempest. Before getting to the democratic debate, I want to offer why Europe the band is relevant.
Sure, like most debates, they had songs that offered fluff, such as “Rock the night.”
“Rock now, rock the night…till early in the morning light.”
Europe, in an age that was often seen as more style than substance, offered both. The song “Cherokee” is meaningful.
“The white man’s creed…in search of gold…made the nation bleed…the promises were lies…Cherokee…marching on the trail of tears…Cherokee.”
Yet the song that will forever define Europe could very well be the swan song for Hillary Clinton. That song is “The Final Countdown.” The song is so intense is because it is about the possible very end of what is held dear.
Hillary Clinton badly and desperately wanted to be President. She may still be, but her dream is slipping away.
“Will things ever be the same again? It’s the final countdown!”
Hillary Clinton does not go down gracefully. Like a nuclear bomb destroying all of civilization, she is embarking on a scorched Earth strategy that could destroy everyone, including her. If she cannot have the job, nobody can.
Like aging rockers that have to be forced into retirement, living off their past, Hillary continued to talk about her 35 years of experience, basking in the glow of things she claims to have done when her husband held the job.
Perhaps she should take note that Europe did wane in popularity for awhile, but put out a final hit song that asks the question, “Will we survive? In the future to come?”
The future is what matters, not the past. We can romanticize deeds past and songs past, but we cannot rebuild the future exactly as the past was. We can wax nostalgic, but we all grow older, and doing so gracefully allows people to be remembered more favorably. Refusing to accept that time marches on often leads people to be crushed by the changes of life, which always come no matter how hard we try to stand in the way.
Texas may have been the Alamo, but the Cleveland, Ohio debate may have been Hillary’s last stand.
Europe’s hard rock love ballad “Carrie,” says it perfectly.
“Can’t you see it in my eyes…that this may be our last goodbye…oohhhhhh…Carrie…things they change my friend…ohhhh…Carrie…maybe we’ll meet again.”
It fades out with the words that began the song…”when lights go down.”
The lights have not been turned out, but the people are exiting Hillary’s stage, and she is screaming at them to stay, even when they are clearly stating that they want to go to the new rock concert across the street.
With that, below is the Ohio debate recap.
Much of the debate contained significant rehashing of the points covered in the Texas debate only several days earlier.
https://tygrrrrexpress.com/2008/02/texas-smackdown/
Hillary was asked about her warm fuzzy statements from the close of the last debate in contrast with her scorched Earth comments in days after the debate.
Hillary answered the inconsequential question with an inconsequential answer. She did so in a calm manner before meandering into health care. She said Obama’s information was false, misleading and inaccurate.
She was then asked about the photo showing Obama looking like a member of the Taliban.
She stated that it did not come from her campaign.
Obama stated that he took Clinton at her word. He stated that Hillary’s campaign has sent mailers smearing his plan in places from Iowa to Nevada, before reiterating the health care mandate issue. He stated that his campaign “does not whine about it.”
Hillary repeated her arguments from the Texas debate. She cited her experts, and Obama then cited his. He again proffered the same issue from Texas regarding how Hillary would enforce her mandate.
Every time moderators try to shift gears, Hillary interrupts them and insists on talking more by saying this issue is “too important.” She then repeats the same rehashed points from previous debates.
Obama claimed he “was being filibustered on this topic.”He again explained the difference between mandates on children and mandates on adults. Obama pointed out that Medicare Part B is voluntary, and not a mandate, and yet people still utilize it.
Hillary kept interjecting and rambling. Obama calmly reiterated his plan.
The debate finally shifted to NAFTA. The Houston Chronicle loves it, an Ohio Congressman detests it. Hillary was asked who was right.
Hillary then had a meltdown. She stated that it was curious that she always gets the first question on issues. She alluded to the Saturday Night Live skit making fun of the media’s love affair with Obama. She looked like a spoiled brat complaining.
She then straddled, saying that NAFTA did some good things, but had hurt others. We need to “fox” NAFTA, and have a “trade timeout.” She had cited that the Cleveland Plain Dealer criticized Obama’s “attacks on her.”
Obama pointed out that Hillary campaigned in 2000 for Senate supporting NAFTA, and that it is false for her to claim to always be against it. He was always against it. He stated that Hillary has “shifted positions.”
Tim Russert repeated Hillary’s many comments supporting NAFTA, and asked if she would invoke the 6 month opt out clause of NAFTA.
Hillary again straddled, saying that she would opt out “if NAFTA was not renegotiated.” When she tried to shift into an attack on Obama, Russert refused to let her do so. She grew flush with anger, and kept trying to have both sides of the issue.
When again pressed about opting out, she again stated that she was “confident it would be renegotiated.”
Obama wanted to avoid being a deer in the headlights like Hillary was, so he just stated that he “agreed with Hillary.” He filibustered and offered some class warfare, but nothing of substance.
Obama was asked if NAFTA was good for Ohio given that they are fourth in the nation in exports.
He replied that Russert’s question was a “valid point,” before blaming “the wealthy.” He then stole a line from Hillary about “green jobs.”
Hillary’s arms were folded and she looked angry.
Hillary was asked about her pledge for 5 million new jobs new jobs, when the same pledge made in 2000 for 250,000 new jobs for her Senate race fell flat into a jobs deficit. She was given the chance to revoke her pledge.
She instead blamed republicans, stating that her pledge was based on Al Gore being President. She then cited her husband’s job creation record.
Obama was asked about comments attacking his foreign policy experience. It was compared to President Bush.
Obama coolly got off a great line by stating that Hillary “equates experience with longevity in Washington.” He then reiterated their differences on Iraq, and again laid out his views on Pakistan.
Brian Williams pointed out that Hillary “took a pass” on answering the question in the last debate regarding Obama’s experience.
Hillary again passed, but took credit for things that had nothing to do with her. She claimed credit for peace in Northern Ireland, which was the work of former Senate Majority Leader George Mitchell. She also cited standing up for women’s rights in Beijing. This is ironic because she criticizes Obama for being all talk and no action. Her words in China moved nobody.
She also stated it was unfair that he gets credit for claiming he took positions before he was in the Senate, and that once he got to the Senate they voted the same way. She then again unleashed her resume. She claims she would be much better equipped to take on John McCain.
Obama disputed Hillary’s antiwar claim, mentioning that he was in the middle of trying to get elected when he passionately came out against the war. He stated that those who voted for the war “drove the car into the ditch.”
As Obama stated that Hillary “enabled” George W. Bush, Hillary actually looked like she would explode in anger. His views are not based on a “speech.” They reflect his “judgment.” He stated that her position was the same as that of President Bush until she started running for President.
Before Hillary could reply, Russert shifted to the issue of troop withdrawal. He asked if the troops would be immediately withdrawn if the Iraqis wanted that.
Obama mentioned a “phased” withdrawal.
Hillary stated that there is “no military solution.” She would “absolutely” listen to the Iraqi government.
Russert asked a tough question. If things in Iraq went to hell after we left, would we reinvade?
Hillary argued it was hypothetical, Russert insisted it was a “real” scenario,” and Hillary argued with him. Hillary criticized President Bush and Obama, but would not answer the question about reentering Iraq. She mentioned that Obama has not held one hearing on Afghanistan or Pakistan.
Obama pointed out that he only became chairman of this particular committee since 2007. He ducked the question about reinvading. He then stated we should “always cooperate with our allies.” That reminded me of John Kerry’s 2004 “global test” remark in one debate that hurt him.
Hillary tried to respond, and Brian Williams needed to cut to commercial. She tried to cut him off, but the commercial break won out.
Obama was asked about Hillary’s sarcastic remarks towards him in speeches. Obama heard his own words and said, “sounds good,” to laughter. Hillary cackled. He stated that Hillary was amusing. He stated that he has a 20 year record, and that if Hillary thinks he is all talk, she should talk to the “veterans of Walter Reed.” This was in regards to a law he helped shepherd to help such veterans. He offered his rational for running, which was to help people.
Hillary stated that she was “just having a little fun,” with her jabs at Obama, before moving on to attacks against special interests, oil companies, and President Bush, none of whom had anything to do with the question. She then tried to mention every city in Ohio for the sake of mentioning them. She pointed out a couple differences on votes, such as Obama supporting Vice President Cheney’s energy bill that she voted against, in addition to a credit card bill they disagreed on.
In a hint of irony, she attacked those that would “never give up.” She said this as she flailed away, with the moderator again trying to get her to stop talking.
Obama was showed the video of him criticizing Hillary for using her First Lady experience when it suits her, while running away from that record when it does not suit her.
Obama reinforced his statements, using NAFTA as an example of her claiming she was behind the scenes disagreeing with it. Obama stated he voted against the credit card bill, and brought up the issue that Hillary in a previous debate said that she “voted for it but hoped it would not pass.” Obama, to laughter, pointed out that the way to keep bills from passing is to simply vote against them.
Obama then calmly offered a dagger. He pointed out that Hillary keeps claiming to be a fighter, which she herself again mentioned in her previous answer dealing with health care. The problem is she fights with everybody, and that her health care approach in 1993 excluded people like the late Senator Patrick Moynihan, and that in the end nothing got done. He can work with people. It was a cooly delivered but very persuasive argument. He also pointed out that there was nothing silly about inspiring people. He also mentioned Hillary taking millions of dollars from special interests.
Russert asked Obama about his pledge to opt by public financing, which he is now “waffling” on.
Obama stated that if he became the nominee, he would sit down with John McCain and try to work out a fair deal. He [pointed out that 90% of his donations were from smallinvestors, with the average donation being $109.
Russert persisted about opting out, and Obama reiterated his position. Russert then pointed out to Hillary that she she and her husband would not release their tax returns. Russert stated that Americans have a right to know who is bankrolling her campaign.
Hillary replied that “the American people who support me are bankrolling my campaign.” She stated that she “will release my tax returns, I have consistently said that.”
Russert asked, “Why not now?”
Hillary replied that normally campaigns do it when they become the nominee, or earlier, and that she “has been as open as I can be.” She said she “will get it together, but not right now, she is a little busy (with the campaign), hardly have time to sleep.” She will “work towards releasing” them.
She was also asked about her archives as First Lady be released. Hillary stated that she absolutely would, and blamed a slow process. She somehow blamed the Bush White House for slowing the process. I give her credit for officially being the most brazen human being in existence. She stated she will take care of this, “as soon as we can, she urged it to be taken care of.”
Russert asked Obama of his being endorsed by Louis Farrakhan.
Obama nailed it. He condemned Frrakhan’s antisemitic remarks, and stated that the endorsement was not solicited. Russert asked if the endorsement should be rejected. Obama stammered, but then stated that he will not object to somebody else “thinking I am a good guy.” There was mild laughter, and Obama again denounced Farrakhan’s antisemitism.
Russert asked about Obama’s Pastor Jeremiah Wright, who has supported Farrakhan. Specifically, Obama was asked about whether his Jewish support would dry up as this becomes more well known.
Obama stated that some of his strongest support is form the Jewish community, and that he is a staunch supporter of Israel. He would “not tolerate antisemitism in any form.” He also wants to “rebuild a historical relationship between the Jewish and African-American communities.” He took his remarks further by saying, “I would not be sitting here were it not for a whole host of Jewish Americans who supported the civil rights movement, and helped to ensure that justice was served in the South.” Obama pointed out that on Martin Luther King Jr. Day, he spoke out against antisemitism at a Baptist Church.
Every black American that harbors antisemitic attitudes should be forced to watch that clip of Obama. It was a spectacular…and true…answer.
Hillary took the opportunity to point out that in New York in 2000, the Independence Party was controlled by antisemites. She rejected their support and refused to be associated with them. She claimed it was a bold stand on principle, but the truth is the Independence Party at the time was a fringe element, and any sane person would reject them. It was the right thing to do, but not bold at all.
Hillary contrasted by saying she rejects the support while Obama merely denounces it. Obama laughed uncomfortably. Obama said he did not see the difference, but that if Hillary felt rejection was a stronger word than denunciation, he would “concede the point and reject and denounce.” Hillary said, “good, good,” as if she had won a significant argument. The crowd clapped for Obama. Brian Williams made light of the difference as well, allowing the semantics to segue to a commercial.
Williams then pointed out to Obama that his record was more liberal than Ted Kennedy according to the National Journal.
Obama responded that the National Criteria Journal had only two votes where he and Hillary differentiated. One was an arcane immigration point, in addition to a procedural aspect of an ethics bill. He successfully showed it to be inside baseball, and that the “categories don’t make sense.” Obama stated that “people don’t want to go back to old labels of liberal vs conservative. They want common sense.”
This was smooth, but another example of a liberal being too gutless to simply admit proudly that they are a liberal.
Russert then asked a very relevant question about the Russian election on March 2nd, and what they knew about the man that would be the successor to Vladimir Putin.
Hillary stated that the man is a “handpicked successor.” Hillary attacked the guy, but did not mention his name. Perhaps she did not know it. She did correctly point out that Putin is trying to hold on to power, and attacked President Bush’s Russia position. We need a “more realistic and effective strategy.” When asked if she knew his name, she stuttered. She then had trouble pronouncing it, and then after saying the name, added the word, “whatever.”
Yes, this is the lady that detests President Bush so much. Thank the heavens for You Tube for moments like this.
Obama said that Hillary spoke accurately about Putin. Obama then criticized Bush’s friendly relationship with Putin.
Russert showed why he is one of the best in the business. He is a bulldog. He asked Obama what he would do if the new Russian President Medvedev helped Serbia retake Kosovo.
Obama stated he would “work with the international community…state that this is unacceptable.” He mentioned NATO. He then praised the Clinton administration with regards to Kosovo.
What Obama did not mention was the willingness to use military action.
Russert then asked a question that has been asked before, but is still relevant. He wanted to know if either of them had a vote they would like to take back. Hillary is unable to ever admit she is wrong. Even on Iraq, she claims to have been duped by President Bush. This was another opportunity for her to admit she is not perfect.
Hillary again brought up her 2002 Iraq vote, and again blamed the President. Again, Hillary failed to ever admit that she herself was ever wrong about anything. It makes the charge of Obama’s stick, that she takes credit for the good, but never takes blame for the bad. She can’t do it. Humans make mistakes. It is what makes the human. This lack of ability to do this is what makes Hillary come across as an android.
She then shifted to pablum about the future. She mentioned the failure to end the genocide in Darfur. It was her husband that failed to end the genocide in Rwanda, yet she continued to say that “we could have an entire program on what we inherited from George W. Bush.”
Obama mentioned the Terry Schaivo situation. He mentioned that Congress intervened in the matter. Obama was against intervening, but he did not stand on the Senate floor and try and stop it. He stayed silent, and that was a mistake. He even added, “as a constitutional law professor, I knew better.” He also said that “inaction can be as costly as action.”
This is the difference between the two candidates on this issue. A sincere question was asked about what they did that was wrong. Obama answered it, and Hillary did not. It is another reason why he is likable and she is not.
Americans like those that take responsibility for their failures. JFK took the blame for the Bay of Pigs Fiasco. Harry Truman is famous for his sign that said, “the buck stops here.” With Hillary, the buck stops with every other human being who is not her.
Obama then praised Hillary, and stated that he was proud to be campaigning with her, echoing her comments about him from the previous debate. It was an attempt to end positively, but both candidates may or may not have been aware that one question remained.
The last question by Brian Williams was to both candidates. Each candidate was to state what the other candidate needs to still answer to be worthy of being the nominee.
Obama stated that Hillary would be worthy, but that he would be better. Otherwise he would not be running. He stated that Hillary is better than Senator John McCain, who is tied to President Bush. Obama stated that the reason he thinks he is better is that he “can bring people together in a unique way.” This will be necessary, and he has the track record to do it. He has a “unique bias in favor of opening up government.”
Hillary mentioned being the first woman President, and the audience clapped. Her issue was who can actually change the country. Shockingly enough, she mentioned her 35 years of experience. She then again spoke about health care.
Not a single question about the War on Terror was asked.
This was a reversal of Texas. Obama was cool, calm and collected. Hillary was angry, shrill, combative…she was basically herself at her worst. She blamed the moderators, Obama, President Bush, and everybody but the one person that is responsible for her failure to be more likable…herself.
Barack Obama won this debate by a landslide.
“Prisoners in Paradise…so far from Heaven’s door…we had it all, but still we wanted more…I asked myself, was it right or wrong, for me to turn away…we’re just children of tomorrow, hanging on to yesterday…I realize, that I can’t turn back…the future’s here to stay…we’re just children of tomorrow…hanging on to yesterday.”
This is not a Joey Tempest in a Teapot. It is about choosing the next leader of the free world. Europe left a legacy of beauty. Hillary will be remembered. The only question is if she wants to be remembered as somebody who truly tried to raise a village, or if she was more obsessed with burning the village for not making her the leader.
“I’m not superstitious…I have no doubt…that there’s a reason…that things turn out…I want you to know…you’re on my mind…every day…all of the time… So keep on walking that road, and I’ll follow…keep on calling my name, I’ll be there…if a mirror should break…it’s easy to take…deep down I know that you care…I’m not superstitious.”
Hillary is not yet history, but she is collapsing under her attempt to try and shape all of the near history herself. Existence is bigger than her, and she is crumbling under the weight of trying to accept that before she existed and long after she is gone, the world will do just fine.
It’s the Final Countdown.
eric
Okay, you just cemented your membership in the Man Club. Anyone who can root for the Raiders and admit to being a fan of Europe without flinching is a Man. Shameless GOP cheerleading be damned.
BTW, when I saw Europe live in the late 80s, all the guys in the audience had nothing but gratitude for those guys. You won’t see the same kind of talent at, say, a Slipknot show.
I mean, people have access to health care in America. They can just go to the emergency room.
– President Bush in a 2007 White House Briefing
Europe was a talented band, no doubt. Not my personal favorite, but very catchy and well-produced. Bands were a lot more talented back in those days.
The Indepence Party is not anti-semitic. That’s just silly. That whole anti-semitic tag came from a remark made by party member Lenora Fulani like 20 years ago that was highly critical of Israel. The IP itself has lots of Jewish members, has often endorsed Jewish pols, and is the biggest third party in New York by far. This is yet another example of the irrational vitriol rampant in the Israel debate.
The debate last night was definitely slanted against Hillary. She took several cheap shots from Russert. She won the debate on the substance, but lost big-time on style, as usual. It was a rather pathetic display.
And that stupid National Journal rating is a joke. It was based on a period when Obama was running full-time and missed a pile of votes. Obama realistically ranks much lower on the “liberal” scale. Only a moron would think the man is more liberal than Bernie Sanders, Ron Widen, or Russ Feingold, just to mention a few.
What an insipid media we have indeed.
And as a perfect but sad segway – William F Buckley just died. So goes one of the last class acts of the professional Republican punditry. God speed Bill.
JMJ
I doubt that we’ll see the class and integrity in Hillary that Mit Romney showed when he realized for the sake of the party and country that it was time to bail.
And to all those out there that debated me on the media bias issue.
Kiss my keister.
Even the media is pointing out now how the media is biased.
Every channel is now pointing out the medias promotoing of Obama using more than just subliminal tactics.
But we also have to realize that Hillary brings alot of the negative attention upon herself with her constant narcissistic whining
Still, today, I have not heard one thing out of either of them that is a viable solution or approach to the middle east. One is a flat out liar, the other is clueless.
“But we also have to realize that Hillary brings alot of the negative attention upon herself with her constant narcissistic whining.”
This is just misogyny in action. When Hillary speaks, she’s “whining” and “cackling,” when a male candidate speaks they are “showing strength” and “battling.” When Hillary runs for office she is called “self-serving” and “narcissistic,” when a male runs he is called a “patriot” and holding to a “cause.”
Hillary is just a mainstream pol. Nothing more, nothing less. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just being foolish.
JMJ
Eric, Nice recap. It’s like comparing a smoothie to grape nuts – except that I’m not sure the grape nuts in this case would be much better for us than the smoothie. Having said that, I am less scared of Hillary and her supporters than I am of Obama and his Obra-moonies. She is definitely trying too hard, and the sad thing is, they are so close together on their issues that it really does come down to likeability, who can unify, and who can screw the most money out of working Americans without their realizing it.
Prose: President Bush is right – check out almost any hospital anywhere, and you’ll see an emergency room filled with uninsured citizens (and others) who have access to health care. Granted, they may have to wait several hours, but it’s better than the Canadian system which has a 10 month wait for maternity care…
You can refer to me as foolish all you want.
But I’m 50 years old and I’ve met a lot of women who hold themselves up very well in corporate positions with being self centerd and always eluding to talking points that reflect on nothing but herself.
When she does this she always sets her self up to be labeled such as I did.
This opinion of mine is warranted by the realization that I pointed to earlier that she doesnt have the class or genuine concern for anything but her own appearance, she will not quit gracefully. And on that issue the media will beat her up some more, and she’ll whine about that when it happens. Her personality can do nothing other than create a snowball headed for hell.
I have also never in my life seen a female candidate that is as self absorbing and devisively disengenuous as Hillary.
I’m not refering to any of her physical attributes such as her cackle.
Anyone who thinks that Hillary, a former first lady at the center of more controversy than any other female in political history is just another pol is absolutly a fool.
Micky, Not sure whether your above post is directed at me or not – I didn’t say I support her, nor did I imply that she has anything good to offer. The message is, she is a known entity – we see her warts, we’ve lived through her early years as a lawyer, the Whitewater controversy, her wonderful investment expertise, her book, “It takes a village idiot”, and healthcare to name a few…and I submit that it’s a whole lot easier to battle against her than it is against an unknown quantity who won’t stoop to snake oil but is selling moondust instead.
Eagle,
“Prose: President Bush is right – check out almost any hospital anywhere, and you’ll see an emergency room filled with uninsured citizens (and others) who have access to health care.”
Yeah, at like 10 times the cost. The mergency is supposed to be a last resort, not a GP’s office.
“Granted, they may have to wait several hours, but it’s better than the Canadian system which has a 10 month wait for maternity care…”
That’s a lie based on a spurrious anecdote.
Micky,
“I have also never in my life seen a female candidate that is as self absorbing and devisively disengenuous as Hillary.”
You should get out more.
JMJ
Eagle, I’m sorry.
It was meant for JMJ.
I’ve been all over this country Jersey. Just because I can see right through her doesnt make me any more of a fool than you.
She could learn alot from the composure and character of ladies in politics such as Condoleeza Rice and Madeline Albright. These ladys manage to face confrontation and adverse situations with more class than she will ever be able to come up with.
A good portion of the country who is not half as informed as you or I still sees her much in the same light as I do. And it is for that reason alone why she is tanking.
If the country saw her reactions the same as that of any other pol, male or female she would not have the stigma over her head that she has created.
I detect a little feminist sympathy and bias coming from you if she isnt reckognized by you as a self ceterd whiney female dog in heat.
Jersey, I’m not sure what a “spurrious (sic) anecdote” is, but it is obvious you still don’t know what tongue-in-cheek humor is. Lighten up. You mentioned earlier that you write to make a difference, and being a self-described liberal, you offered that you go on conservative sites so you CAN make a difference. It should be intuitively obvious to the casual observer that in order to make a difference, one might consider seeking common ground first, identify where the differences are, and working on those differences. On the contrary, from my very first post, you called me insane and said you would bury, and little has changed since then. Most conservatives understand wry wit – and I am still chuckling at the one fellow who Snope a Doped a “spurious anecdote” I wrote about Hillary and some elementary school kids… From the picture you’ve posted, you must not take yourself too seriously, so please offer the same consideration to others – I’m not a rabid right wing arms dealer who wants to neuter all liberals… just the males.
Micky, No problem – and in honor of some of your better rants, I should have said, “he’s selling moondust to moonbats”…
Oh, then sorry Eagle. There is a popular myth out there about a woman who couldn’t get a maternity bed way out in the Canadian back country for ten months and ended up here to give birth to her quads. The story is not entirely true, and is a rather odd anecdote that could be applied to any similar situation, even here in the US.
As for your personal critique, to quote Hillary, “whatever.”
Micky, I stand by what I said.
JMJ
Yea Jersey, When valley girls are at a loss for words the say ” whatever”.
You may stand by what you say. But you might stand to learn a lesson from the majority of this country that feel exactly as I do.
If she wants to play with the big boys, then shut up and play or get outta the way.
Shes a cry baby. Bashing Bush at the end of almost every statement in the debate just before this one.
Comparing Obamas fliers to Carl Roves techniques the day after I thought she was going to hump him on stage. Crying on que. Bragging about her husbands accomplisments as if they were hers. Flopping on the war issue. Bragging about failed endeavors as if they were successful. They laughed at her in China.
And constantly, constantly propping her ole man up in front of the world as if he is an exaple of her abilities.
The whole thing is sickening and yet she walks around holding this false display of pride and achievement. When really, compared to any of the other candidates who have bowed out only because they are not so self absored she has little to no experience or accomplisments to brag about as they do.
Jeez, even Ron Paul and Ralph Nader have a better resume` than her and they dont walk around banging their own drum till the country hates them.
If I had a dime for every pol that could be descrided the same way, I’d be a millionaire. The hatred of Hillary is irrational, misogynistic nonsense.
JMJ
Yup!
I was right. Jersey thinks like other hypersensative feminists that we hate her just because shes a girl.
Now, if I had a dime for every cheap excuse like that I would be a millionaire.
Thats what the left does. They have to use some excuse other than the fact that the person themselves on their own merit is a failure.
I dont care if she is a gay and black spanish speaking hermaphrodite Jersey !
Shes a bad person.
Nice try Micky. My point is simple – She’s obviously not all that bad of a person. Obviously. There’s a heck of a lot worse out there, and she’d certainly be better than what we have now.
JMJ
She has been caught in the middle of more crap than Bush could ever manage even if he tried.
She is not that good of a person either. You’re best defense of her is the assumption that I’m some kind of misogynist. When I have chopped her up on her own merits or lack of should I say is weak.
She has a failing track record that is a mile long filled with more questions than answers.
Because she wont answer them.
And please tell me . What is it about her that “obviously” makes her ” not that bad a person” ?
Being a snake has become “obvious” to almost half the country.
Jersey, You are right – I have no right to make “personal critiques” on this forum….unless I’m picking on politicians or actors/actresses who are fair game by profession…
A while back I showed you a list Of GWBs accomplisments in just one year.
I would love to see if she could even come close to that in the last 8 of her years. I’ll even let you throw in her stint as the first lady. She will lose ! Hands down next to Bush anyday.
Come on Jersey ! I’m calling you out. Put up or shut up.
I would rather do a debate with facts instead of slinging opinions back and forth
Without all the questions about taxs and papers in the Clinton library that no one can see for another year lets just look at the money in the last year.
Heres a guide to the unsavory characters who have been associated with Hillary Clinton.
THE DONOR
Norman Hsu, Hong Kong “apparel executive.
THE GREEN
Hsu bundled more than $850,000 for Hillary’s presidential campaign and $260,000 for Clinton’s Senate races.
THE SCANDAL
Hsu parlayed his charming, obsequious personality into a spot as one of the top twenty Democratic fund-raisers nationwide. Problem is, he turned out to be a convicted felon, on the lam since 1992 due to a grand theft conviction. Then, this December, Hsu was indicted for running a pyramid scheme that defrauded investors out of at least $20 million and that made $25,000 a year in fraudulent political donations.
THE SLEAZE FACTOR (on a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 somewhat sleazy and 10 stupendously so)
8. Hsu missed his initial (September 5) court date for the 1992 grand theft charge, only to be apprehended a day later on a train in Colorado; he was “freaked out,” shirtless, shoeless, and holding a suitcase packed with Tiffany jewelry and $7,000 in cash. Now in federal custody, he confessed to running “phony” companies and leaning on investors to make political donations.
THE DAMAGE TO THE CLINTONS (on a scale of 1 to 10)
7. Extensive Hsu coverage stretched out over several news cycles during Hillary’s presidential campaign, and the sordid details of the affair–the pyramid schemes, the links to Asian gangs, the eccentric professional con artist himself–stirred up memories of Clinton fund-raising scandals past. Hillary blamed the fiasco on errors in the donor-screening process.
THE DONORS
Marc Rich, fugitive American businessman; Denise Rich, songwriter and socialite.
THE GREEN
Denise Rich contributed $70,000 to Hillary’s Senate campaign and $450,000 to the Clinton presidential library fund.
THE SCANDAL
Over seventeen years after Marc Rich fled to Switzerland to avoid charges of racketeering, illegal trading, and tax evasion (he owed $48 million), Bill Clinton pardoned Rich during his last moments in the White House. His ex-wife Denise’s generous donations and Friend of Bill status gave the pardon a particularly rotten stench.
THE SLEAZE FACTOR
7.5. Rich has been accused of a long list of white-collar crimes. The classiest: trading with Iran while the country was still holding U.S. hostages.
THE DAMAGE TO THE CLINTONS
9.5. As Hillary began her career in the Senate, a media frenzy and investigations in both houses of Congress and the Justice Department were launched to see if Denise’s contributions bought her ex-husband’s pardon. Though the president was never indicted for wrongdoing, the Rich affair is often mentioned as Exhibit A of Clintonian sliminess.
THE DONOR
Aaron Tonken, former Hollywood fund-raiser, current federal penitentiary inmate in California.
THE GREEN
In 2000 he hosted a fund-raiser that took in more than $1 million for Hillary Clinton’s Senate campaign.
THE SCANDAL
Tonken originally drew interest from the FBI for failing to report some donations from the event to the FEC. Although he was never charged for election-law violations, in 2003 he pleaded guilty to stealing from charities, including, according to an ABC News report, the Betty Ford clinic. He is currently serving a five-year sentence for mail and wire fraud.
THE SLEAZE FACTOR
9. The self-described con man got his start in Hollywood as Zsa Zsa Gabor’s dog keeper. He sold stories about her to tabloids and snuck tourists into her dilapidated, dog feces-ridden mansion while she was out of town. In his memoir, King of Cons, Tonken wrote, “In a land of moral imbeciles, I knew I could be king.”
THE DAMAGE TO THE CLINTONS
4. A fund-raising committee for Hillary Clinton’s 2000 campaign had to pay $35,000 in fines to the FEC for underreporting the costs of the gala, even though a federal inquiry failed to find any culpability on the Clintons’ part. The financial burden to the Clinton campaign was insignificant–the real harm done was in the image of guilt by association.
THE DONOR
Peter F. Paul, renaissance man, jack of all trades.
THE GREEN
He co-hosted the 2000 fund-raiser with Tonken.
THE SCANDAL
How did Paul underwrite the gala? According to The Washington Post, by improperly borrowing more than $4 million from Merrill Lynch. Shortly after that was discovered, Paul hopped a plane to Brazil and spent years waging a two-front war: fighting extradition and trying to sue Hillary for underreporting the value of the event. In 2003, Paul was extradited to the U.S., and Clinton agreed to pay a $35,000 fine to the Federal Election Commission.
THE SLEAZE FACTOR
9.5. You’ve gotta give this guy credit for flamboyance. According to The Washington Post, Paul’s laundry list of crimes includes a 1970s plot to sell $8.75 million worth of nonexistent coffee beans to Fidel Castro–the plan was to sink an empty cargo ship before it reached Cuba so he could keep the cash. In 1979, he was imprisoned for fraud and cocaine possession, then later violated parole, reportedly fleeing to Canada with a dead man’s identity. After his release from prison in the ’80s, he served as partner and manager to Fabio.
THE DAMAGE TO THE CLINTONS
4. Hillary offered the same explanation for missing Paul’s criminal background as she gave for missing Norman Hsu’s: technical errors in the vetting process. It worked–by 2008, most Americans have forgotten about Peter F. Paul.
THE DONOR
Sant S. Chatwal, founder of Bombay Palace restaurants.
THE GREEN
In 2000, Chatwal hosted a half-million dollar fund-raiser for Clinton in New York. In 2007, he declared his intentions to raise $5 million for Hillary’s presidential campaign.
THE SCANDAL
According to The Washington Post, as of September 2007, The IRS was pursuing him for $4 million in back taxes, the State of New York for another $5 million, and the FDIC is suing himin connection with a failed bank venture. The Post wrote, “Yet none of the legal and financial woes–occasionally touched on in American or Indian newspapers or highlighted by political opponents–raised red flags inside Hillary Clinton’s fund-raising operation.”
THE SLEAZE FACTOR
4. Though Chatwal’s legal troubles span several suits and two continents (he’s also been charged with bank fraud in India), his alleged crimes lack the color and imagination of, say, a Peter F. Paul.
THE DAMAGE TO THE CLINTONS
1. So far, none. But if any of the lawsuits against him come to a head during election season, the timing would be awful for Clinton.
THE DONORS
International Profit Associates (IPA), an Illinois-based management consulting and business development company.
THE GREEN
Bill Clinton pocketed $125,000 for addressing IPA workers in December 2001. The Chicago Sun-Times reported that firm employees have forked over nearly $130,000 in contributions to Hillary’s Senate campaigns since 2000.
THE SCANDAL
IPA has faced a string of scandals–most notably, a widely reported sexual harassment suit involving 113 former female employees. Two of them told their stories on a 2005 episode of “Oprah Winfrey Show.”
THE SLEAZE FACTOR
8.5. The harassment suit included accusations that the CEO offered money to a female employee in exchange for sex and that a sales manager would pin female employees up against the wall and ask if they enjoyed intercourse.
THE DAMAGE TO THE CLINTONS
3. Though never a large-scale national scandal, it doesn’t look good that Hillary has, in effect, shrugged off what the lead attorney for the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (the federal agency leading the investigation) called one of the “most egregious case of sex harassment that the Chicago district office has seen.” Senator Clinton–unlike other politicians who received campaign donations from IPA employees, such as Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich and Wisconsin Governor Jim Doyle–has opted not to return the contributions.
Sorry, heres my source.
http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=076fd56f-4aca-4683-a9d1-3c55d748946e
Okay Eagle.
Micky, we can trade lists all you like, but when we compare them we would find they are quite bipartisan in nature. That is why I am neither a democrat nor a republican. But in the end, in reality, we are still stuck with the partisan choices we have. With that in mind, Hillary Clinton is not all that terrible a choice. Me? I’d like a Kucinich administration. You? You want Super Reagan, dug from the grave and made bigger, faster and stronger, with super Reagan Rhetoric Breath. But never will either happen. You can’t seriously, with a straight face get into a list-of-scandal war comparing Hillary with Bush or any of the late GOP majority characters.
JMJ
JMJ;
“You can’t seriously, with a straight face get into a list-of-scandal war comparing Hillary with Bush or any of the late GOP majority characters.”
Straight and firm bro, all day long.
You dont pay attention too well. I have expressed my liberal points of view many times.
So spare me the Reagan connection even though I still think he was a great man I am all for drug legalization as the war on drugs has proven to be more costly than it was ever worth. I am pro immigration as long its within the laws that already exist.
I do believe the war in Iraq was executed poorly, but that has changed, dramatically. And I till think it was the right thing to do like almost every lib on the hill 6 years ago.
I have stuck to my convictions. I cant say that for them.
If both lists were deemed bi partisan well so be it, then you cant say it wouldnt be a fair fight.
I have made a commitment as a conservative only because its what I believe in being what holds the country together better than those who cant commit such as yourself and are constantly bringing up the issues that are not important that serve only to divide the country.
Example;
You just threw the gender card into the play when discussing Hillary.
I was treating her just like one of the boys but you had to throw in some hypersensative feminist crap that had nothing to do with my opinion of her.
If anyone is playing the gender card its you and her. She whines about being beat up on because she is a woman. And you use some supposed hatred I have towards women as a defense for her.
Pathetic and weak, thats what that is
[…] The Tygrrrr Express has an excellent roundup of the recent debate between Clinton and Obama. He goes through it point by point and adds this final comment: Obama was cool, calm and collected. Hillary was angry, shrill, combative…she was basically herself at her worst. She blamed the moderators, Obama, President Bush, and everybody but the one person that is responsible for her failure to be more likable…herself. […]
No, Micky, I was simply pointing out how Hillary is often negatively “feminized” when she is attacked from her more petty detractors. I don’t care if you go after her or anyone else on the issues, but when you employ sleazy, personalized tactics, I find it offensive. I think Bush is dumb as a stone, but that’s not what I have against him. It’s his crooked administration that puts me off.
JMJ
Still, my point remains true and firm.
You chickened out on debating the issues and used a presumtive act of bigotry on my part to chalk the whole arguement up as foolish.
I never referd to anything having to do with sex or feminism untill you called me foolish and a misogynist.
Plain and simple , read your own writing.
And when your petty accusations didnt work you bailed and chickend out once again and failed to want to engage in a debate on the issues saying the lists would be bi partisan. But you know I like to argue facts and not opnion like you. So you ran when I suggested we argue facts. You would rather argue on the emotional level and bringing the debate down to the sleaziest of sleaze and accuse me of being bigoted somehow.
Thats what the left does. When a person fails on their own merits , right away you guys start making excuses based on gender or race.
Now we all know why these morons cant figure out why race is always an issue and cant ever get put on the back burner.
Because the left wont let it go away.
IUts the what they think s the best defense when they cant actually argue a position intelligently.
God ! Its happened to me so many times.
Illegal aliens, I’m a racist. Feminist acting like jerks , and I’m a misogynist. If I dont vote for a black man who is unqualified I’m a racist. If I think a hetero family is better for a childs upbringing than a gay family I’m bigot homophobe.
You people who use these tactics are truly the bigots when you assume all these things about everyone else
I’ll debate Hillary v McCain any time on the issues. The war, healthcare, eductaion, investment, infrastructure, agriculture, immigration whatever. Let’s put aside the vitriol and really go at the issues. That would be cool.
Take the war. What would Hillary do? I would posit that it would be rather similar to the status quo. She would try to pull a Nixon, win it or lose it, and come out clean (well…).
Take the AMT. I posit that Hillary or McCain would reform the AMT immediately. I think the GOP will stand against it to highlight political differences.
Take anything you want. But stop calling people whiners. That’s playground talk.
JMJ
Looks whos talking about playground talk !
The fact of the matter is that neither one of these candidates ( Obama, Hillary) are talking about the issues.
How does anyone know what Hillary or Obama would do ?
All they’re doing is taking pot shots at each other.
What ? Phased redeployment ? Start packing up in 90 days ? Big deal. We’ve heard that from congress a hundred times this year. We all know thats BS.
No one is going to leave Iraq untill we can.
And I can call people whiners all I want whether you like it or not.
This whiney behavior defines character of the worst kind that I do not want in our oval office.
At least Bush has the decency not to blame everyone around him for everything.
Just as you on the left make up false accusations of bigotry because you wont just admitt the lady is a whiner.
Instead my statement was categorized as ” Hating or distrusting women”
NOW THAT IS PLAYGROUND TALK !
Get with the times, Micky. The issues are engaged. Stop pretending they don’t exist and try taking them on.
JMJ
JMJ;
“This is just misogyny in action. When Hillary speaks, she’s “whining” and “cackling,” when a male candidate speaks they are “showing strength” and “battling.” When Hillary runs for office she is called “self-serving” and “narcissistic,” when a male runs he is called a “patriot” and holding to a “cause.”
This is the base of this debate.
If you want to play chicken hopscotch and claim that I am not on issue , so be it. You just look like a fool.
Hillary is running a negative campaign. She is moaning and bitching about everyone and thing
Theres is nothing Misogynistic about my calling her a whiner.
I do not hate or distrust women.
You cannot prove that Bush is a comlete and total failure.
You refuse to even try.
Hillarys accomplisments are nothing compared to Bush.
This is provable fact that you run from.
In the last week her and Obama have had more spats over the dunbest crap that are non issues.
Plagury, speechs, fliers, the media is unfair, I always get the first question. The skys will open and celestial choirs will sing.
The issue here is that she will not engage the issues, and it is that particular point of mine that you cannot refute.
You would rather talk about McCain, the war ( I kick your butt on that always), education, or anything else but the issue at hand because you know I’ll mop the floor with you.
Go ahead and play your games all you want. I called you and you ran.
Do you remember this ?
“A while back I showed you a list Of GWBs accomplisments in just one year.
I would love to see if she could even come close to that in the last 8 of her years. I’ll even let you throw in her stint as the first lady. She will lose ! Hands down next to Bush anyday.
Come on Jersey ! I’m calling you out. Put up or shut up.
I would rather do a debate with facts instead of slinging opinions back and forth”
THAT ! Is what we were talking about.
And it was that which you will not do because you will lose !
So, yeah, it does appear at this point that Hillary is on her last legs. We’ll know for sure on March 4. But the amazing thing is that the so-called aging rocker living in the past just raised $35 million dollars in one month. If the candidate who has lost 11 straight primaries and is supposedly going down in flames can raise that kind of money (not to mention the $50 million Obama raised as well), if I were John McCain I’d be crapping my pants.
I think it only means that he’ll be facing one or the other.
By now it appears that the two dems have maybe maxed out thier finacial sources.
How long can they perform this drain ?
With McCain showing more promise everyday I think he’ll soon start to bring in some revenues at a much more strategic point in the campaign
“Hillarys accomplisments are nothing compared to Bush.”
Exactly. Unlike Bush, Hillary is not an abject failure. Bush ruined his party, and now, as Greg points up, the GOP can’t even raise money anymore. Even usual GOP contributers are giving to Obama and Hillary now. The only way the conservatives can beat her is to lie about her and to feminize her for the consumption of misogynists.
JMJ
That is an unrealistic statement since hillary has never had one iota of the responsability that Bush has had.
But she does have a rather dismal track record as far any accomplisments go. which I listed already.
Its quite obvious still that you would rather debate on opinions other than the truth.
But the cold hard facts are this.
Bush has done more for this country in one year than she has in her entire life, simply because he is in a position to be able to do so. A position that if she obtains it in my opinion will be the worst and most dangerous presidency we have ever seen.
Alot of whatever funds are left out there right now are going to be wasted on one of two dem candidates before the general.
On the other hand we see conservatives and liberal conservatives and a whole lotta leftys such as Jersey moving to McCain. That movement is only in its beggining stages and will grow when McCain actually starts to debate the dem nominee.
He will mop the floor with either one of them.
Oh, and Jersey. Spare me the mosogynist crap already. The only one who cant get past her being a woman and probably hates herself for being a woman is Hillary herself.
She is going down due to character traits and not gender traits.
Conservatives dont need to beat her. Shes doing quite well without any help from anyone.
Obama’s beating her. He’s doing it smartly too. He hits her where she’s vulnerable (like when she went along with Bush’s failures) and dodges her on her strengths (like her consummate policy knowledge). He’s an excellent speaker, he’s dapper and demure, and he has an aura of authority. Hillary’s strengths are not in her personal style but in her wonkishness. I am not one to care much for style over substance, but many Americans do fall for that sort of tripe.
JMJ
Yes Jersey , we all know Obamas beating her. But uts not because hes any smarter than the next guy. As you pointed out its because he is a better speaker, carrys a better composure and with that comes likeability. Neither one of them has any substance simply because they cant put out any clear cut examples of how exactly they are going to produce results on all their promises.
And that is mostly due to the fact that they wont have to produce these answers untill they face McCain.
Hillary is her own worst enemy. She produces her own negative results with no help from anyone. I seriously doubt that Obama has some little voodoo doll that makes her say and do all the dumb things she has done.
He is not causing her to do things by sublime means or passive aggresive means or any form of reverse psychology.
She could be running against Michael Moore and still look bad.
Good post with Europe lyrics along the way.
The band is still active since it reunited in 2003.
Visit: http://www.europetheband.com
wow. finally…
someone with something intelligent to say about the dems…
i’m amazed.
and i learned something.