The long running television show “The Simpsons” once did a parody of a serious religious debate show. The serious debate program is “Religion on the line.” The parody was “Gabbing about God.”
I had the pleasure of attending a very serious debate about God. Offering the Jewish Perspective was Dennis Prager. Dinesh D’Souza offered the Christian Perspective. The Atheistic perspective was offered by Christopher Hitchens.
The entire event was so substantive that days are required to provide its full depth. So for now, it is time to go back to the very beginning. In this case, the very beginning means each man’s opening statements.
Arguing the perspective that there was no God, because if there was, God would be horrible, Christopher Hitchens began.
“I normally wear garlic when entering a temple.”
“It is ironic that we are working today on the day of the international melee (May 1st).”
“Commandments are meant to be broken.”
“Religion poisons everything. It attacks us in our deepest integrity. It makes us animals. It makes us a ‘Celestial North Korea.'”
“To reject Atheism you have to be able to do two things. If you do them I will give you a prize, to be announced later. Nobody has ever done them. The first thing you have to do is find a good action by a believer that could not be made by a non-believer. Even if you can do this, which nobody has done, the second challenge is even more impossible. Try and find a wicked action by a non-believer that could not have been done by a believer.”
“Religion offers the worst attempt at explaining our lives. Whether it be climatology, cosmology, philosophy, Earth, diseases, religion falls short. This is because we have a heritage of ignorance and stupidity. ”
“The worst aspects of life all emanate from religion. Genital mutilation is based on religion. Suicide bombers claim religious motives. Creationism, ethnic cleansing, nationalism, and racism are all religious.”
“Humans have existed for approximately 100,000 years. For the first 95,000 years, people lived 20 to 25 years, and they fought over women and territory. Then in the last 5000 years, religion intervenes, at which point we have human sacrifices. This is attributed to God.”
“If you believe that, then God is bungling, incompetent, and wicked, and you will believe anything.”
Jewish theologian Dennis Prager then offered a ringing defense of God.
“People who are most prepared to believe what is most idiotic are secular.”
“The nonsense of religion is constricted to a few beliefs.”
“Churchgoers are more rational.”
“There are those who believe that men and women are the same. They give dolls to boys and trucks to girls. You have to be secular to believe this would work. The concept of global warming is believable if you are secular. ”
“If you stop believing in God, you stop believing in anything, not nothing.”
“If you believe the USA is morally equivalent to the former USSR, you must be secular.”
“Secular people make religious people look normal. The worst murderers and torturers were secular.”
“If you drop God, you drop wisdom. There is no wisdom in Atheism.”
“Common sense and likelihood says that everything could not have just come about on its own. Nothing comes from nothing!”
“The believer must account for unjust suffering. The atheist must account for everything else.”
“We did not go from nothing or a rock to Beethoven’s 9th Symphony or Bach. If you believe that, then you will believe anything.”
Dinesh D’Souza then offered his view of God from a Christian perspective.
“I started a conservative newspaper as a young man. The problem with having a conservative newspaper is that it is like pig wrestling. You get dirty, and the pig likes it.”
“One thing we (he, Prager, and Hitchens) all agree on is that we believe that Islamofacism is a problem, and that communication and dialogue should take place in the form of live ammunition.”
“Religious belief is not equivalent to rational knowledge. Some argue that we believe when we don’t know. Yet if you remove God, the puzzle still remains.”
“Why did man accomplish nothing for 95,000 years? There was no wheel, no cave painting, no anything. In the last 5,000 years, something happens! Souls! We are not Darwinian primates.”
“I am a Christian because the Portuguese came with a bible in one hand and a bayonet in the other. They were very persuasive.”
“Lately my faith has become ‘Crayon Christianity.’ We know Santa.”
“We pull away because we don’t know the answers, not because we can’t answer them. Then we get wrong answers from secular college professors.”
“Anyway, to quote Henry VIII to one of his wives, ‘Don’t worry, I won’t keep you long.'”
“The universe is a giant conspiracy to produce us. It is immune to Darwinian attack.”
The opening statements were followed by sharp rebuttals and powerful closing statements. They will be provided shortly, but for now, the debate shall rage at the Tygrrrr Express.
After all, there is no need to provide the answers immediately when the readers of this column are bright enough to figure them out for themselves.
eric
Oh man, I miss Religion on the Line. For years, most every Sunday morning I would tune to WABC radio New York and listen to the Priest and Rabbi and whatever guests they had that week while I made my coffee and breakfast and started my day. I have to tune that in on the web more often. On the other hand, whenever I tune into the old NYC stations on the web, I get home sick. And that Simpsons parody was hilarious! I remember that!
God, I wish there was no religion (pun intended) – not monotheism, polytheism, secular “religions” like totalitarian communism and fascist nationalism, etc. It’s all such a waste of human thought and effort. One thing I notice about Hitchens’ arguments is that he actually presents facts as oposed to just thoughts seemingly culled out of the blue from whole cloth. I like his argument that you don’t really need religion to be ethical or “moral.” Even concepts like the Golden Rule are found universally throughout every culture, far before Jesus. And that D-Souza comment about the 5000 years – what is this guy thinking? Does he believe that all modern humanity started 5000 years ago in the Middle East? Has he ever heard of China? Insane.
JMJ
Did you ever notice the tiny little happy face at the bottom of your page?
JMJ
JMJ:
“.” Even concepts like the Golden Rule are found universally throughout every culture, far before Jesus”
Which just drives my point that no other species was givin the ability to develop these attributes.
Snakes look much the way they did thousands of years ago, but still act the same.
I dont know, maybe they were a little meaner before but still. No other animal has devolped the level of conscience we humans have.
Yea Jersey. All the “isms” you wish were not here are just a little too much to bother with huh?
Its hard to enetertain the concept that there actually might be more to all this than the simple view you have.
How do you know what snakes acted like? LOL! (Snakes are great proofs of evolution, by the way, as they still retain tiny vestiges of ancestral limbs.)
Other species have been observed showing compassion, ampathy, sympathy and so forth, Micky. Ans since we have no way of reading minds yet, we don’t know how much or to what extents. You have no way of knowing what level of conscience other animals have, Micky. For all we know, Dolphins are more compassionate than us. You should assume things you have no way of knowing.
And I don’t know what “simple view” you mean. For such a simple view, you guys seem to have an awfully hard time grapsing it.
JMJ
JMJ;
“How do you know what snakes acted like? LOL! ‘
You’re the history buff, so what dont you understand about recorded events?
I’m talking about animals who have emotional connections to things like turf, food and mates. I’m talking about processed intelligent thought.
Please, if you cant grasp that simple comparisson its only obvious you cant grasp the concept of a superior being.
Dolphins? Are they even half as complex and organized as humans ?
I dont assume sh** ! I go by what I see. I can out smart any animal on earth and even most humans , so give us and me all a break from your trivial implications.
It takes practically nothing to figure out you view Jersey.
You have choose not to engage in further investigation into anything other than streamlining existance down to a simple “PLACE”
Might as well just off yourself now right ?
Theres no point to this life and you’re just polluting the earth.
All of this and everything that has ever happend in infinity serves no purpose ?
Thats just plain stupid. I may not know exactly what that purpose is. But at least I give my existance a whole lot better meaning and purpose than you do.
Jeez, if I had to look at it your way I would just be a walking turd machine.
No thank you man. You can have your blan and meaningless existence.
No wonder secular libs are always so miserable. Theres nothing in it for them except to gratify their egos by seeing what they can impose upon other people. I guess when they get away with all this crap they impose on everyone they can stand back and look in the mirror and bow to themselves for being the little gods they think they are for imposing some kind of rule over man.
Once again this just proves my point that most libs and dems are one dimensional thinkers.
They play checkers.
Us on the right play chess on three levels
Libs and dems? Most of them are religious too, Micky! And there are plenty of conservative atheists! What the double-sticks man? Is your partisan switch always on?
Species adapt to their needs. Higher social mammals – monkeys, canines, dolphins, humans – all have various levels of social adaptations. Humans, being the weakest per pound, have larges brains and are more interdependent than most creatures. Dolphins, living in the sea, are adapted to a migratory lifestyle and must always move to rise for air. Monkeys, being tree dwellers, have keen vision and hearing and can react quicker than humans to danger. Canines, being carnivores, are adapted more for group hunting and scaveging, etc. Every animal is adapted to it’s niche.
Humans, having eminated from creatures of the forest, had to adapt to the spreading savannah around them early in their evolution. Have lost the shelter of the trees, and ready supplies of water, food and shelter, evolved larger barins to compensate with the sparce and open environs of the drier, more open, world around them. Thus they learned to make shelters, use tools to find grubs and insects hiding in the ground, etc. Everything has a reason, Micky. GOD IS NOT IT.
JMJ
JMJ;
“Libs and dems? Most of them are religious too, Micky! And there are plenty of conservative atheists! What the double-sticks man? Is your partisan switch always on? ”
Pay attention, or stop compartmentalising things. I said secular !
Once agin you missed the point of my mentioning processed thought. no other animal even comes close to human ability.
There have always been forest. What the hell are you talking about ?
We are more invative than any other creature no matter what the circumstance.
You have never accepted god so how can you possibly know if it works or not ?
Fine, whatever. And bees fly, and monkeys climb, and dolphins swim, and cheetahs run fast, and ants can lift 10,000 times their own weight, and dogs hear super-high pitched sounds, and so forth and so on. Every creature has it’s niche. Our’s involves the use of our brains. What do you want, a medal?
(Humans evolved in a region of Africa that was once heavily foested and began drying and becoming savannah a couple million years ago – sounds to me that you’re the own who has no idea what the counter-argument is all about)
JMJ
Counter arguement /
You go from one subject to the next trying make some point which by now is nothing but an obscurity.
Saying every creature has its niche is exactly the ignorance I am speaking of.
They all have brains and they all use them.
But there is no comparison to that of a human. Period.
And that says something to me.
Of course it would be too deep a thought for your ilk to contem[plate as to why we are not competing with other species of similar intellect.
Are monkeys buliding freeways and making medicine and flying to the moon ?
Do any of these animals you equate yourself to have the capability to communicate in a million different ways ?
Where we first evolved has little to with any of this. If you would like to disect Darwin, thats for another debate.
How can you say something does not exist when you have never botherd to look ? Or doubt before you try ?
Your last statement was about as weak and vacant of any point or clarification as they come
I give credit to life by means of defining pupose.
You do not give life credit or purpose and chalk it all up to simple existance.
That my friend is about as lame as lame could ever get.
And very sad.
I feel very sorry for you
Micky, do you think you are not an animal? Do not not eat, excrete, inhale, see, hear, feel, have sex????? You’re an animal! You have a problem with that?
Look? For God? Where do I start? Oh, let me guess, a multi-millenia-old book of myths. Yeah, that’s the ticket!
JMJ
If you fail to see the distinction between man and every other animal you are clearly intellectually bankrupt
All you are doing is trying to turn this into a discussion about something else.
Look for purpose of deeper meaning. Indulge in complex thought that will lead you to other conclusions instead of clinging to the simple minded ones that make you feel better temporarily.
I have already made my views of the bible clear. So your last sentence was nothing more than a childish smart a$$ remark.
My credit to purpose and existence goes to way before the bible and way into the future my man.
I myself will not have my beliefs constrained by any doctrine.
Seeing as how imeasurable the universe is , it is incredibly ignorant and naive for anyone to think we can put a measure on existance. ITS JUST PLAIN STUPID.
With this in mind I have come to the conclusion that there is intentional and intelligent design created by an entity far greater than myself or any man.
You on the other hand choose to give no other faith, or purpose for it all.
We used to think the earth was flat.
Not untill man explored his beliefs did we find out we were wrong.
Micky, all animals, including us, are made of the same stuff – all stuff found rigt here on the ecosphere of the Earth. We are all simply arranged differently. We have big brains, elephants have tusks, pussycats have tails. But the ingrediants are all the same. We are all animals. We flora and fauna are a product of the vast and wondrous universe. That should be good enough for anyone. I don’t need God, or any other silly myths, to be in awe of the universe.
JMJ
You just dont want to find out why we are the superior being on this earth
You really ought to be careful and start saying “you believe”
I can explain by virtue of my fath why man is the one species on earth that is un comprable to any other being.
Its not just awe of universe. Its defining purpose in ones life which gives it value.
far more value than just being an existing piece of flesh.
I think you just dont want to go there. You dont like answers. They’re bothersome. You just make things up and tell everyone it is so. Maybe you actually do think you are God
Just like when we debate. You rarely ever supply anything to back up your claims because you actually cant supply enough credibility to your position. Its just too much work or your case is vacant of any real point so you try make another one that has absolutely nothing to do with the subject.
As in your last comment. It was the second time you dodged bt trying to give me a run down on the talents and properties of various animals.
By doing that you actually made my point. You can find one creature on this earth that even comes close to the prperties and talents of humans.
If we are all made of the same stuff then why did we humans come out so much more advanced and superior in every aspect thinkable?
Really, you look foolish trying to argue that your existance of belief that we are ust chemicals is even able to compete with those who believe they are of a higher calling than just to crap and reproduce.
Superior? I don’t look at things that way. And if we wind up destroying ourselves and all the other species, then who would later call us superior? I do not have an inferioirity complex, and so I have no need of labeling myself superior. The Germans in the late 1930’s were considered the most advanced culture on the Earth. Look what they did. They thought they were superior too. Look what that wrought. Religion is an evil dementia that makes small men into big murderers. It is a disease of the mind. A wicked, twisted, demented, evil murderous way of life.
JMJ
First of all, and once again you are dodging.
I have made it abundantly clear that I am not religious.
You are only picking out the evil commited by organized religion which I have denounced many times.
You are not taking into context the amazing abilities of man and all the good we have accomplished since our creation.
People are dying and miserable in Burhma. What other animal puts its feelings aside and does the right thing like the people of the US and send them aid ?
Any other animal would sit and watch them die and suffer !
So , lets cast the trojan horse aside you tried to bring into this debate that goes by the name of religion and actually try to get you to explain how you can chalk your existence up to being nothing more than blood and flesh.
You say you are neither superior or inferior. That leaves you equal to everything and leaves you nothing to answer to except your own conscience. That conscience we all know is adjustable in order to justify your actions.
Having to only answer to yourself leaves you void of any accountability for any mistakes you make towards others.
Which by the way is your typical lib
Micky, you are religious and you have the need to feel superior. I can’t argue with those sorts of problems.
JMJ
I have no problem.
I belong to no religion.
So little boy you can say it all you want and it wont happen and it will never make it true.
But I do believe in a higher power.
I do not have to, nor do I need to feel superior. Ptherwise why would I claim to have a maker ?
But I will not have some simple minded person who will not explore the questions that millions of people ask try to make me look foolish or stupid.
Its simple.
I have defined a purpose in my life by accepting I am not superior.
You make yourself superior by the simple action of no action in thought.
As your last sentence makes this abundantly clear. You seem to think your word is the gospel truth.
Now that is an evil disease of the mind.
Do you know why martial artists are able to break through bricks and boards with their hands that would normally cripple you ?
We look at the whole board and acknowledge the far side of the board, not the surface.
Our aim is past that of the surface and focused on the other side. That other side is our target.
Mind over matter. It takes great concentration and faith in ones god givin ablities.
I feel sorry for you that you cant think past the inner side of the box you are in.
Jersey,
Your most tiresome attribute is the labeling of anything you don’t agree with as insanity or some other perjorative.
“And that D-Souza comment about the 5000 years – what is this guy thinking? Does he believe that all modern humanity started 5000 years ago in the Middle East? Has he ever heard of China? Insane.”
You’re much too quick to denigrate things you don’t understand.
“Religion is an evil dementia that makes small men into big murderers. It is a disease of the mind. A wicked, twisted, demented, evil murderous way of life.”
Religion actually tries to control the wicked, twisted, demented, evil and murderous impulses that are present in all men. It isn’t always successful, but without it I don’t think civilization would have come so far. All the evils that you attribute to religion are actually committed by man ignoring what his religion has tried to tell him, or by denying it outright. (Islam is not a religion – it is a death cult.)
Dennis Prager said, “If you stop believing in God, you stop believing in anything, not nothing.”
I don’t think this is true. People have a need to believe in something. Those who stop believing in God will believe in anything: the state, the political party,atheism, multiculturalism, global warming, Al Gore, Michael Moore, Obama, vegetarianism, etc. That’s why the howls of indignation whenever any of their beliefs are challenged. Facts don’t have any room to co-exist with beliefs in the mind of a zealot.
Jersey, Your comment, “One thing I notice about Hitchens’ arguments is that he actually presents facts…” is interesting but misses the bigger picture. I am far from an atheist, but I agree with most of his comments. Religion is the root of many evils. In fact, many of the greatest horrors on earth were in the name of religion – Crusades, mutilations, suicide bombings, martyrdom, et al. Having said that, religion is man-based. If you take that tired old Book to which you referred and treat it as a fairy tale, from a human perspective, I’ll grant that there seems to be some contradictions – whether you look at just the Old Testament or the New,- King James vs NIV, whatever…man-based, man interpreted. Big difference between religion and faith. Those of faith have been touched by their version of the Holy Spirit, and whether they can explain it or not is irrelevent, they have faith. Granted, just because someone such as Micky or me has it, doesn’t mean you do, and we know from the Book that God has hardened certain men’s hearts, but I have faith that the same Holy Spirit that touched me will one day touch you – but don’t worry – no intent on concersion, no more arguments from me – I simply wanted to say that I agree with most of your points – religion is not necessarily a good thing. Rather than bringing order from a divine set of rules, man has bastardized common sense rules and placed his own design on them, creating division. Faith is the key, and unless one has it, it is silly to argue about it.
Micky, we’re going to have to agree to disagree.
Charly,
“Your most tiresome attribute is the labeling of anything you don’t agree with as insanity or some other perjorative.”
Careful there, Mr Martel. I don’t know about your house, the side you’re on lives in a big ol’ glass one. Let’s just take Prager’s quotes our good host reported to us:
““People who are most prepared to believe what is most idiotic are secular.” “Churchgoers are more rational.” “The concept of global warming is believable if you are secular. “ “If you believe the USA is morally equivalent to the former USSR, you must be secular.” “Secular people make religious people look normal. The worst murderers and torturers were secular.” “If you drop God, you drop wisdom. There is no wisdom in Atheism.” “We did not go from nothing or a rock to Beethoven’s 9th Symphony or Bach. If you believe that, then you will believe anything.”
Careful with those rocks, Charly.
“Religion actually tries to control the wicked, twisted, demented, evil and murderous impulses that are present in all men.”
Well, some aspects of it do. But one the whole I would argue that religion creates more dementia and makes more dementia worse than it cures or controls. I’m trying to think of any studies on the subject, but nothing is coming to mind.
“(Islam is not a religion – it is a death cult.)”
See what I mean about rocks and glass houses? And what does that say about Christianity? After all, compared with all other faiths outside those of the God of Abraham, there isn’t much difference between your faith and Islam.
Eagle, thanks. I would love a prolonged discussion on “faith.” That would be fun. Even spirituality and mysticism would make for some good debate and conversation. Religion as a conversation is just a brick wall these days. It’s only times like these I wish we were back living in the renaissance. I hope Christianity isn’t on some cyclical reactive decline into what much of Islam is today.
JMJ
Charly M:
“Your most tiresome attribute is the labeling of anything you don’t agree with as insanity or some other perjorative.”
JMJ:
Careful there, Mr Martel. I don’t know about your house, the side you’re on lives in a big ol’ glass one. Let’s just take Prager’s quotes our good host reported to us”
You could heed a little advice here Jersey. When you are more receptive toward other peoples feelings abd beliefs they will be more willing to listen to yours.
Isnt that supposedly what being a liberal/dem is all about?
Embrace all ? Or is it just those who agree with you ?
The latter would actually be a definate sign of insanity. Because you inadvertantly will always try for something new but always get the same result.
JMJ:
“Careful with those rocks, Charly.”
Would you care to amplify on this comment and actually contrast it with something other than warranting bad behavior with more or other bad behavior?
Just because we critisize does not mean we cast away our own faults.
If no one were allowed to critisize due to our own faults nothing would ever get done, especially in the arena of ethics and morals.
Sorry charly, IO realize jerseys comments were directed at you.
But they reflect his contempt for anything past his mind
Give it a rest. Don’t call me obnoxious if you’re being obnoxious yourself. What the …., Micky? Haven’t you read that crazy old Book? I may be obnoxious, but I make no claim of superior obnoxiousness.
JMJ
Micky,
“Sorry charly, IO realize jerseys comments were directed at you.
But they reflect his contempt for anything past his mind”
No apology necessary. It’s true. The remarks I made were out in the open for all to hear.
Jersey,
“…on the whole I would argue that religion creates more dementia and makes more dementia worse than it cures or controls. I’m trying to think of any studies on the subject, but nothing is coming to mind.”
If the tendency to dementia is there, religion makes it worse. That is the fault of the demented person, not the religion. I repeat: Religion is an attempt to control and redirect the baser impulses of mankind. The problem is that mankind is still ruled mostly by the seven deadly sins. Anger, gluttony, sloth, envy, pride, etc.
“(Islam is not a religion – it is a death cult.)” I said this because I see no attempt to lift man above his bestial nature. Killing everyone who doesn’t agree to submit isn’t very uplifting. Other religions were able to refine their message above the most primitive, but islam was put in its present form about 700 years ago and can’t evolve today because now it is cast in stone.
Jersey, you are being hypocritical when you constaly use the ” Glass house ” defense.
You are saying that there is no point in discussing this because we are all no better.
Well we must get better.Its called progress. And we have progressed for generations now because we examine our flaws and then work on them.
No judge in our system would ever be able to hand down a sentence if it were up to you because you would simply get in his face and say: “you’re no better! what gives you the right?”
This is where forgivness comes in. We must realize that people with all their flaws can still make decent judgements without having their feet held to the fire.
I think I should explain something here.
After decades of drug and alcohol abuse and at least 15 or 20 detoxification’s in hospitals or treatment centers I decided to do something about it. I was tired of a vacant life. Even dying for a minute didn’t convince me to quit. The sheer repetition of misery is what did it. ( who says torture doesn’t work?)
Of all the 12 steps in AA I had a hard time with step #2.
” Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.”
Its like I was being sent purposely to find something to believe in that would convince my counselors that I had seen the light.
Other clients around me took this step and ran with it and came back in a matter of days professing that in just a matter of two or three days they had all had some miraculous event in their lives that altered their vision and hearing. Theses junkies were filling everyone with so much crap it made me sick.
One sounded like this:
Just yesterday I was standing on the hill top and all of sudden the sky was bluer, the grass was greener and a wind went through my mind that seemed to speak to me. I felt a warmth inside and my mind was free, I knew it was God”
O. K
I think you all get the idea.
I refused to be a part of this charade. I told the counselors that thought most of these guys were full of sh** and that they were just complying so they could get their clinical release.
I told my counselors that I really hadn’t “found God” but that I did realize that my own morals and ethics (actually lack of) is what got me where I was at . And that right now my higher power would have to be those around me who were not emotionally involved with me but who could give me direction simply because they understood.
In other words my counselors were my higher power .
I had no place in my life for traditional Christianity or spiritual worship at that point in my life. I watched my perception of God kill my little sister at 5 years old and did little for my family in the following years as my household erupted into insanity for a decade.
We trudged our butts into church every day and performed all the pageantry that goes with it and nothing changed, ever. As a matter of fact things just got worse.
God was joke.
Not until I sobered up and stayed that way for years did it finally start to sink in that I was a part of something far greater than any imagination could ever come up with.
I had the clarity and presence of thought to begin to realize this.
But had it not been for my God givin ablities I never would of made it that point.
I was givin life so that I could actually ask the questions that most people would see as blasphemous.
I did not find God because of some prerequisite or doctrine or requirement by family that “I must be Christian or go to hell”
It was an occurrence that came to me over time in piece meal because I was willing to accept that I am not the center of the universe. And that for me to think that I was just flesh and blood here to procreate a species served no real purpose.
I looked around and consumed all in my mind that I could at one time and convinced myself that all we see and do must serve a purpose. There must be a point to all this.
It makes a lot more sense by any stretch of logic than to believe we are of simple existence and of no purpose.
We are all here for a reason and I hardly think its to see just how fast we can all knock each other off.
There are many good reasons for the existence of mankind that defines purpose.
To believe that we are just a cosmic fluke takes away any meaning of life or purpose.
Man has to believe he has purpose, otherwise he will surely become extinct.
Charly,
“If the tendency to dementia is there, religion makes it worse. That is the fault of the demented person, not the religion.”
Does not Jesus care for the demented person? If the religion fails the demented, does it not fail Jesus as well? (Why am I, an atheist, more Christian than most Christians?)
“Religion is an attempt to control and redirect the baser impulses of mankind.”
I don’t know if I entirely buy that. Religion is more than that. Religion is also a spirituality; a mystic, mythical, moral belief set. Religion is also political, with all that goes with that. The political should be less religious.
As for Islam, I find your religion just as beneficient, and abhorant.
Micky, I am a spiritual person. I just happen to not be a big fan of the God of Abraham. Once you get that, we’ll discuss this just fine.
JMJ
JMJ;
“Micky, I am a spiritual person. I just happen to not be a big fan of the God of Abraham. Once you get that, we’ll discuss this just fine.”
Oh I get it.
Now you believe in a spirit but the rest of us are nuts?
And really, how dumb do you think I am ?
It defies all logic for you to not of mentioned this in the previous post 48 hours ago.
I use to make my living amongst the best bullsh**ters in the world, gimme a break.
Charly:
“If the tendency to dementia is there, religion makes it worse. That is the fault of the demented person, not the religion.”
JMJ;
“Does not Jesus care for the demented person? If the religion fails the demented, does it not fail Jesus as well? (Why am I, an atheist, more Christian than most Christians?)”
Less fortunate people also serve a purpose in the grand scheme of things Jersey.
Isnt it plausable to believe that a God of intent would give us certain obstacles in life to prove our selves as fullfilling of our purpose ?
Are we not helping non christians in other countries that hate us ?
Has man not used his free will to distort the true meaning of the teachings of God and Jesus?
The ones who exercise that free will to the benefit of his fellow man will be the ones who get it.
Why do we have disaters ? Illness? War?
If you were Christian in any sense of the word you surley would not say those things.
What would be the point of a perfect world ?
“Now you believe in a spirit but the rest of us are nuts?”
No, not that at all. I mean that I open to the possibilities and exploration of higher states of consciousness. I do not believe in “a spirit.” I have always been intriqued with the Stream of Consciousness, but I make no claim to really understand it or that it is some real, tangible thing beyond the personally psychological. Though in some ways they overlap, spirituality and mysticism are different from religion.
The point I was making about the “demented” is that if religion were truly beneficient, it would help them, but it usually only makes things worse.
JMJ
JMJ:
“The point I was making about the “demented” is that if religion were truly beneficient, it would help them, but it usually only makes things worse.”
No, you’re wrong. It does not “usually” make things worse.
I’m no fan of organized religion mostly because it has been responsible for a lot of evil.
But that is due to people who use it to justify their intent.
You cant blame the car. But you can blame the driver.
There are a lot of wonderful drugs. But we cant blame the drugs when people abuse them and make up reasons for using them.
Organized religions are responsible for almost all the charities and helpful organizations out there second only to fed aid.
The ugly results of self serving religion are hard not to notice. Blood sells.
But the good resulting from organized religion far outweighs the bad.
I choose not to be a part of it because I think it gives far less credit to what’s going on than it should. Since the bible does not answer all my questions it leads me to believe that there is more going on than the %5 of our brain could ever imagine.
You cannot just apply the word “spiritual” and along with it your own meaning of the word.
Being spiritual does apply the belief of a higher power.
Spirituality, in a narrow sense, concerns itself with matters of the spirit, a concept closely tied to religious belief and faith, a transcendent reality, and assorted Gods. Spirituality matters regarding humankind’s ultimate nature and purpose, not only as biological beings, but as beings with a unique relationship to that which is beyond both time and the material world.
Spirituality is always contrasted with the material and temporal world. A perceived sense of connection forms a central defining characteristic of spirituality — connection to a metaphysical reality greater than oneself or in this case”a higher power” Spirituality is the personal, subjective dimension of religion, particularly that which pertains to liberation or salvation and falls into categories of mysticism.
Spirituality may involves perceiving or wishing to perceive your life as more important , more complex or more integrated with an ordinary world view; as opposed to the merely sensual.
Many spiritual traditions, accordingly, share a common spiritual theme: the “path”, “work”, practice, or tradition of perceiving and internalizing one’s “true” nature and relationship to the rest of existence (God, creation of the universe, life or whatever), and in the process becoming free of the lesser egotistic self in favor of becoming one’s true self.
So you cant sit there and tell me that you are sp ritual only because you are interested. You actually have to have some form of belief.
Not only are most of the religious people you look down on actually feeling they have attained a level of spirituality, they believe in an even higher level after death.
I am not afraid of death at all.
If you are right I will have nothing to suffer.
But I choose to believe that their is a level of conscience we will have after death and how we perform now will determine that level of conscience.
And as far as making it worse goes you are again absolutely wrong.
I have seen prayer or meditation get millions of people thru hard times when nothing else seems to work. Whether its performed amongst masses such as.
First you say this:
“Religion is also a spirituality; a mystic, mythical, moral belief set. ”
And then you say this:
“spirituality and mysticism are different from religion.”
You cant have it both ways Jersey.
It seems like you are the one who really needs to concede here on two levels.
The first level would be the one you and I are on.
Concede to me that you are a lousy bullsh**er.
The second level would be the one you are on by yourself.
That concession would be to admit that you are not the beginning and end of it all.
And that your beliefs are prefabricated only as a defense mechanism against looking wrong in the face of something you truly don’t wish to understand.
I got ahead of me self again. The complete sentence reads;
Whether its performed amongst masses such as churchs / organizaed religion or on an individual level
Micky, I won’t debate you if you lie, misrepresent me, take me out of context, or are otherwise so disingenuous:
“First you say this:
“Religion is also a spirituality; a mystic, mythical, moral belief set. ”
And then you say this:
“spirituality and mysticism are different from religion.””
This is out of context and I said they overlap. Be a good Christian and be honest, Micky.
JMJ
Unfortunatly you got caught up in your own pile here. Its obvious to the biggest idiot in the world that the two statements conlflict with each other dramatically.
First you say religion is a spirituality and then you say they are different from religion.
Pathetic
You quoted Dennis Prager as saying “If you stop believing in God, you stop believing in anything, not nothing.” Are you sure this is an accurate quote? I listen to his show often and I’ve heard him say this same thing many times, but saying people don’t believe in nothing so secular people believe in something else with religious fervor, like second-hand smoke or global warming or physical health. I think you inverted his statement, but it’s kind of convoluted so I’m not sure.
Religion is a troubling subject to me. My dad got religion after he came back from Vietnam and on the weekends after he and my mom divorced he would take my sister and me around to different churches. I came to believe that religion was a crock and I gave an impassioned talk during my high school speech class demanding that children be exposed to different kinds of religions so they can make up their minds. I refused to be married in a church and had the word God removed from my marriage vows. I never felt a certainty that God existed at all, much less the Christian version of Him.
However, I slowly started to convert into entertaining the possibility that He exists after objectively assessing the benefits to society and my neighbors that Christianity had. I also began to feel grateful in an undefined way when life was good and the day was beautiful. It seemed small and mean to restrain the impulse to give thanks so I would send up a silent prayer thanking God for the world and my life. I tend to lionize respected authority and so many people I admire believe in religion so deeply I thought it was ridiculous for me to assume that I knew better than they and thousands of years of believers. Listening to Dennis Prager’s show was a big influence, too.
Also, small children don’t understand reasoning that exists outside of their experience and sometimes you have to resort to authority to make them behave morally until they are old enough to understand the benefit of dong so. Religion helps with this. They can see their parents are fallible, but understand that God is not. Once they are old enough to start asking about unfair suffering in the world they are generally old enough to understand the benefits of morality and can either continue in the religious path or choose to live unreligiously without endangering their safety or the safety of others, for the most part.
Still, I’ve never had faith, just faithful actions. The only time I really believed for an instant was the day of prayer after 9/11. I prayed in a church and believed God spoke to my heart telling me not to worry about Bin Laden, that America would prevail against him. In retrospect, it seemed so self-serving and specific that I didn’t really credit the experience.
Over the last few years, I’ve swung back to the general belief that there is no God. I still like to argue the religious view with some, just for fun and to make sure people aren’t just parroting words they’ve heard, but without faith I don’t really believe in Him. I’ve read and argued the subject endlessly. Most religious people will acknowledge that you cannot objectively prove the existence of God or the works attributed to Him. They admit that it is a matter of faith. So, for those without a faith in God, He doesn’t exist. Some scientists like to talk about the odds of this or that happening, but that’s just saying how likely it is. Given the size of the universe and all it contains odds are not a good rationale.
With that said, I don’t agree with Christopher Hitchens. I think religion has been a generally good thing for the world. Mankind has been attempting to understand its place in the universe. Religion is one of the tools we use with our imagination and creativity to figure it out. Man is growing and maturing. What was appropriate for one age may not be for another. I don’t think we’re at the point where we can discard religion from all societies. Learning how to incorporate the instincts we’ve inherited over millions of years into a method for ordering ourselves and our societies is a pursuit that will last for a time that I don’t know how to measure. It may be that various faiths and conflicts will end up being part of that method or we might figure out how and if we can or should eliminate conflict entirely. I do know that the world isn’t ready to have religion eliminated.
Sorry for such a long post. I’ve never put all this down at once before. Short version: I’m ambivalent about God, but I think religion is still basically a good thing. Time will tell.
Hitchen’s first challenge is easy: doing anything good even though you don’t want to, only because God said so. So, maybe the second one would be preventing good from being done by someone only because that person believes in God. Hey, he didn’t say it had to be sectarian or denominational.
Joshua, Great post. Many of the arguments and thought-processes you use are those that I have pondered over the years, but the difference is that I’ve always had faith…and I don’t know why other than I believe I am moved by the Holy Spirit. You might think I’m a lunatic, but of all the physical, spiritual, or emotional trials I’ve experienced, as well as the many positive blessings, two things smack me upside the head…1) Why do I have a conscience if not for my version of the Holy Spirit, and 2), how is it the earth, sun, and moon are such precisely shaped, distanced, and sized, that when any of the three rotates through an eclipse, it’s a perfect cover? Now, I could really go out on a limb and ask why every animal has precisely the amount of brain matter to use to tan its corresponding hide, but then I would simply prove my lunacy…
I don’t profess any organized religion, but have more respect for some than for others. Like Joshua did, I have gone from churchgoing parents, to visiting various churches with friendsCatholic and Protestant.) Later in life became a doubter (agnostic) then later still an atheist. Then it dawned on me that atheism is as much a matter of faith as religion. The scientific theories about how and why the world (universe) came to be are very elegant, but they all go back to some event that left me wondering what set off that event. In the end(beginning) it was no different than “Let there be light.” This leaves me as a deist. There is a God, but he probably doesn’t do daily meddling in human affairs.
I’ve already stated why I think religion is on the whole more of a good thing than bad. There seems to be no better way to train young children from an early age to restrain their worst impulses. Most of us who think we are being rationally ethical have had moral training long before we were aware of it, if not from religion, then from our parents, who got it from their parents and so on. Somewhere back there is the guiding hand of mother church. The Catholic priests used to say, “Give me the child for the first six years of his life, and he will be a Catholic forever.” That may be weakened today, but it’s not gone.
Eagle,
I envy your unwavering faith. I’ve wasted a lot of time getting there.
All,
I’ve been having trouble with my computer (again.) That’s why I didn’t get this on till today. I don’t mean to concede my point or ignore anybody, but if it may crash on me again. Yesterday it was so slow it took 20 minutes for my post to go thru. We’ll see if I got the thing working now.