Killer Khalid Sheik Mohammed is going on trial, and prosecutors are seeking the death penalty. The mastermind behind the 9/11 attacks is finally, God willing, on his path to hell.
While this would normally be something positive, my cause for dismay is the lack of exposure this story is getting.
I mean how can Greta Van Substanceless talk about it when there is more non-information about Natalee Holloway? After all, don’t we need another story about Joran Van Der Sloot?
https://tygrrrrexpress.com/2007/04/the-war-against-nonsense/
https://tygrrrrexpress.com/2007/06/how-can-we-worry-about-al-queda-when-phtv-is-the-only-news/
Why would the democrats discuss this, or any other issue? Isn’t the real story about the horse race? Will Barack Obama win white voters? Can Hillary win anybody besides aging white women?
How can we discuss Khalid Sheik Mohammed? After all, isn’t the big story Chelsea Clinton? Didn’t some news reporter refer to her using an insulting term?
I have said in the past that we cannot win the War on Terror until we win the war against nonsense. Right now the war against nonsense is winning.
The closest thing to substance will be whether or not John McCain can mend fences with the far right wing his his party. Yet even this story misses the mark as well. The conflicts focused on are illegal immigration and campaign finance reform. The real issue should be torture.
Khalid Sheik Mohammed was waterboarded. Only three people have been waterboarded by U.S. soldiers. He was one of them. McCain is against torture, including waterboarding. If he had been in charge, would he have allowed Killer Khalid to be waterboarded?
Khalid is getting a military trial. What do Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama think about this? Should military trials be abolished?
Prosecutors are seeking the death penalty. What do Hillary and Obama think about this. If the ACLU tries to prevent an execution from being carried out, where will they stand?
Killer Khalid was being held at Guantanamo Bay. Those that wish to shut down Gitmo need to have an alternative location to house bloodthirsty murderers like Khalid. Would they be willing to have him kept in a maximum security prison in Arizona, Illinois or New York? Or should Gitmo stay open?
The proceedings will be public. Is this wise? Is full disclosure a danger to jury members, putting their lives at risk?
Given that staunch allies in the War on Terror England and Australia are both against capital punishment, how can we mend those fences without caving on the issue?
Will networks be able to stop babbling about the “Potomac Primary” just long enough to focus on this story? Or do we really need to know whether a bunch of liberal lacktivists known as Superdelegates will screw up an election between two irrelevant individuals?
There is a hole in the ground, and 3000 Americans are dead. Can the media for five minutes remove their collective heads from Barack Obama’s anus? Can we either take Joran Van Der Sloot and either shoot him or let him go for good already?
Do we need to focus on imbecilic rappers wearing offensive t-shirts at an awards show nobody acres about? Do we need stories about the writers’ strike? People not going to work is not news. It is not like anything of consequence is being written about anyway.
Can’t we give Paul McCartney and Heather Mills guns and let them duel at 10 paces?
Hillary Clinton fired some Mexican woman nobody should care about and replaced her with some black woman nobody should care about. Actually, to be fair, some woman who happened to be Mexican was fired and replaced by a woman who happens to be black.
A presidential candidate with no shot of winning is arguing over votes as if the year was 2000. No word yet on how Al Gore feels about this.
I would say more, but conveying disgust is almost as much a waste of time as reading the nonsense anywhere else.
I shall leave the stupidity to others. I would say more, but if I start surfing the internet now, I might find an article about Killer Khalid Sheik Mohammed somewhere.
eric
Eric.
We all know, well… at least you and I know that these two mannequin candidates dont even want to go near anything serious discussion relevant to the GWOT.
Once they start expressing their plans, suggestions views and options it will definatly blow whatever momentum they have.
I’m sure that McCain has this issue in his holster right now. Because eventually Hillary and Obama are going to have to answer some questions that will clarify their ability to deal with certain scenarios. Call the questions hypothetical, ticking time bomb, whatever, I dont care. Just start talking or shut up and go away
Get ready for another sham of a show-trial like Saddam’s. This is purely political. Deliberately designed to put 9/11 up on the board for the ’08 elections. The GOP has nothing positive to run on these days, so they fall back on their ace in the hole – fear. Gays, terrorists, Mexicans, whatever they think they can use to inspire fear, it will be used. People are tired of bashing gays, so that’s back on the shelf. Mexicans continue to inspire the fear-base, but the issue is limited – the last thing the GOP powers that be want is an answer to illegal immigration (re: cheap labor). So what’s left? Well, that old standby terrorism, of course!
And Khalid is not an army, not a political leader, nothing – he’s a radical cleric who possibly conspired in the 9/11 terrorist attacks. Why isn’t he being tried as a criminal like anyone else? Why would the military have anything to do with any of this? If we have or had proof of his guilt, why wasn’t he charged a long time ago? Why is this “trial” happening now? Why is it suddenly public? I doubt most of those GITMO detainees have ever committed any crime other than angering a neighbor who wanted to make a few quick bucks by turning them in. Could it be that the Bush administration and the military are well aware of all this and need to try to make it seem otherwise?
I am ashamed to be an American today. I’m really tired of feeling this way. I can’t wait until 1/20/09. Maybe then I can finally hold my head up again.
JMJ
It is very rare, if ever, that I hear a Republican state that he/she is ashamed at being an American. Typical liberal ramblings.
Another news story, the MSM fails to report on the recent documents found in Iraq.
When large numbers of Sunnis decided to abandon their support for al-Qaida in favor of U.S. and Iraqi forces last year, it “created panic, fear, and the unwillingness to fight,” according to an al-Qaida leader’s letter seized in a raid last year.
Of the loss of Anbar province he wrote: “This created weakness and psychological defeat. This also created panic, fear, and the unwillingness to fight. The morale of the fighters went down . . . There was a total collapse in the security structure of the organization.”
The emir also complained that the supply of foreign fighters had dwindled and that they found it increasingly hard to operate inside Iraq because they could not blend in, the Times reported. Foreign suicide bombers determined to kill “not less than 20 or 30 infidels” grew disillusioned because they were kept waiting, and were only given small operations. Some gave up and went home.
The emir lists 38 people still working for him but beside five of the names, he wrote comments like, “We have not seen him for 20 days” or “left us a week ago.”
(Keep running, AQ and DLTDHYOTWO!)
It seems like the only time AQ is in the news is when they are blowing up innocent people. Forget about seeing progress against AQ or info on a trial of the 9/11 mastermind. Sheesh.
There was no AQI before we invaded. AQI never was or is the problem in Iraq. the problem is, as Lawrebce of Arabia once said, “Iraq and its people have no history of or familiarity with democratic institutions. The three former vilayets of which it is composed still have no mutual cohesiveness. Mosul in the north is Kurdish, Basra in the south is Shiite Arab, Baghdad in the middle is Sunni Arab. The Kurds, Shiites, and Sunnis all hate each other. It takes a Saddam to hold the place together.”
We should never have invaded Iraq.
JMJ
“It takes a Saddam to hold the place together.”
That was working out real well.
JMJ;
“And Khalid is not an army, not a political leader, nothing ”
NOTHING ?
I dare you to read this article and tell me that he is “nothing”
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/ksm.htm.
Adolph Eichmann was not a political leader or an army. neither was Josef Mengele.
But they were serious tools and participants in atrocious acts. Should they of been treated as ” NOTHING ?”
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JMJ;”he’s a radical cleric who possibly conspired in the 9/11 terrorist attacks.”
Possibly ? Only 911 ?
Mr McJones, it honestly sounds you like you know absolutely nothing about what you are talking about.
Khalid has one of the impressive resumes in terror history. He has confessed to slitting Daniel Pearls throat “ritual style” Him and Yousef were responsible for the first Trade tower attack. The list of crimes is quite extensive. The facts and info are so immense it would overwhelm this thread if I dropped it here. ( link above)
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JMJ;
“Why isn’t he being tried as a criminal like anyone else? ”
Well, seriously,is he like anyone else ?
From Defense Link:
“Each of the defendants is charged with conspiracy and the separate, substantive offenses of: murder in violation of the law of war, attacking civilians, attacking civilian objects, intentionally causing serious bodily injury, destruction of property in violation of the law of war, terrorism and providing material support for terrorism.”
“The first four defendants, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Walid Muhammad Salih Mubarek Bin ‘Attash, Ramzi Binalshibh, and Ali Abdul Aziz Ali are also charged with the substantive offense of hijacking or hazarding a vessel.”
“All of the charges are alleged to have been in support of the attacks on the United States on Sept. 11, 2001.”
Now that sworn charges have been received, the convening authority will review the charges and supporting evidence to determine whether probable cause exists to refer the case for trial by military commission.”
He is part of an organization that has made direct and successful attempts and threats towards our country. An organization that has gone after American military and government installations before as an act of war.
What Jersey ? Would like Judge Ito to decide this one?
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JMJ;
“Why would the military have anything to do with any of this?
Maybe we should of sent a few L.A. cops to Afghanistan after 911 instead of the military to handle this hornets nest ? Or Dog the Bounty hunter.
Does the word “WAR” give you a hint ?
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JMJ;
“If we have or had proof of his guilt, why wasn’t he charged a long time ago? ”
If Khalid were subjected to a public trial it would of taken a hell of a lot longer to get to this point than it has already has. WAY LONGER !
He has about 70 charges against him Mr. McJones. I’m no lawyer, but I’m going to take wild guess that it would take a while to put a case like that together along with his other 8 or 9 conspirators and partners in conjunction.
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JMJ;
“Why is this “trial” happening now? ”
ROTFLMAO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What ? You want a totally Dem Hill and cabinet in charge when the trial starts ?
Sheez, they’ll probably give him a new face and a house somewhere in Brentwood.
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JMJ;
“Could it be that the Bush administration and the military are well aware of all this and need to try to make it seem otherwise? ”
They don’t need to do anything but let them go once an investigation concludes they are not a threat.
BUT ! The ones we have let go so far all went to GUESS WHAT? They went back to their original gangs and camps.
Wake up Jersey ! Most of these guys were captured on the battle field ! Shooting at our guys !
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JMJ;
“I am ashamed to be an American today. I’m really tired of feeling this way. I can’t wait until 1/20/09. Maybe then I can finally hold my head up again.”
You could always leave if you’re so tired.
Maybe because your head is down now is why you cant see.
I have had disagreements with a lot of presidents and administrations.
But I have always been proud to be an American and always been grateful to live here even when Carter was screwing up everything he touched.
Maybe if the left wasn’t so idealistic by setting unobtainable and unrealistic goals all the time they wouldn’t be running around constantly feeling sorry for themselves and crying about getting screwed at every opportunity.
“Most of these guys were captured on the battle field! Shooting at our guys!”
No they weren’t. That’s a lie.
JMJ
JMJ;
” I doubt most of those GITMO detainees have ever committed any crime other than angering a neighbor who wanted to make a few quick bucks by turning them in. ”
First you say you “doubt it”
Now you are so sure of yourself that you call me a liar.
In my book and our justice system the accuser must provide evidence when these kinds of claims are made.
I have provided you with an overwhelming amount of data, fact s and references to support my position and you come on this thread with nothing but an opinion and call me a liar ?
Put up or shut up.
Micky, please try to follow along the theme here. I did not call you a liar. You were simply repeating a lie oft heard from the administration, and other pro-war types. As for my “doubt,” I think you should reread what I said.
Here’s the list of detainees. Now you tell me if they were shooting at us or not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Guant%C3%A1namo_Bay_detainees
JMJ
Eric, we are a nation of Foghorn Leghorn know-it-alls with the constituion of ostriches. Just like tv, if we can’t take a problem that took decades and/or centuries to develop and fix it in a couple hours, we need to change the channel and divert our attention. Neither democrap will address a potential hot potato because it detracts from their hatred of details – the details of accountability. Recognizing Mohammed is to recognize that he actually did something wrong, and there really is a need for GITMO. It’s our fault that neither candidate addresses real issues, and It’s ok to promise hope and change using mystery money and rhetoric, because accountability of reality is NOT what Americans want to hear. Anna Nichole, Heath Ledger, Pam Anderson……those are important diversions because there is no accountability to the individual…watch and be entertained. Watch and be fed, housed, clothed, and insured.
“No AQI in Iraq until we got there?” The military’s intelligence community believes otherwise. “AQI never was or is the problem in Iraq.” Who is attacking the Iraqi police, open markets, and US Soldiers, some comic book characters? You cite Lawrence of Arabia as stating “It takes a Saddam to hold them together”. How long was Saddam in power, because Lawrence died around 1935.
It took a couple years to blend the Catholics, Jewish, and Protestants, the Poles, Germans, Irish, and English…the Indians, Blacks, Mexicans, Chinese, and French…just to name a few…into what we now know as the US… We’re still blending. The Bloods and Crips have been fighting for years, so I suppose we should just leave them alone… better yet, move GITMO detainees and them to Berkeley.
Sorry, wrong quote… I should have picked that up. I’ll try to find the correct one. I can’t find it one the web, so I have to go through my books.
“It took a couple years to blend the Catholics, Jewish, and Protestants, the Poles, Germans, Irish, and English…the Indians, Blacks, Mexicans, Chinese, and French…just to name a few…into what we now know as the US…”
They weren’t forced together by an occupying army.
JMJ
First of all who made you director of themes?
Second of the theme you choose to engage in is to supply some kind of evidence to support your claim that these guys were not shooting t us the link you supply is absolutly 100% useless as it does not describe any terms for arrest of each individual.
As a matter of fact 90% of the noted terms next to each detainees name are left blank.
really, all it is is a list of names.
The same lousy info in the same format appears at the Wikipedias Bagram list. Which by the way holds twice as many detainees as Guantanamo.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagram_Theater_Internment_Facility#Legal_status_of_detainees
The quote of mine that you used was my own words which you called a lie.
In my book and any other book I know of, when you say a mans words are lies you are effectivly calling him a liar.
Get your act together, you forget who you’re dealing with
Here ! This is how its done.
LOL ! It even came from the Jayson Blair times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/07/world/asia/07bagram.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
“The rising number of detainees at Bagram — up from barely 100 in early 2004 and about 500 early last year — has been driven primarily by the deepening war in Afghanistan. American officials said that all but about 30 of those prisoners are Afghans, most of them Taliban fighters captured in raids or on the battlefield. ”
Bagram is where its at ! Not Gitmo. But of course if you follow the MSM like sheep you would never know this.
JMJ;
“They weren’t forced together by an occupying army.”
No, they just had their families heads chopped off in front of each other if they couldnt get along.
Please.
You would think the MSM would catch a clue by the viewing results of the Grammys. Most Americans don’t care what happens in Hollyweird or with any celebrity.
JMc uses wikipedia as a source? Tee Hee Hee
“move GITMO detainees and them to Berkeley”
But then, Eagle6, how will the nutjobs in Berkeley defend themselves without the help of our wonderful Marines? I suppose they could always ask Code Pink. LOL.
What’s wrong with Wiki? It’s just a list of names, not some subjective historical perspective.
JMJ
Thats the point ! Its just a list of names ! Along with subjection is hardly worth a square of toilet paper.
You were supposed to show a list confirming your point of view that I was a liar.
Or the point of view that what I said was a lie !
You have shown nothing but a list of inmates that only lists 10% of the charges. The rest of the info is only notes that are of no consequence or importance.
Now, once again.
I have shown you testimony from inside sources to back up my claim that most of these guys were captured on the field shooting at us.
You on the other hand have NOTHING !
Click on the names with links, Micky.
JMJ
You really do think people are stupid dont you ? Most of these guys havnt had formal charges brought against them yet. So there is nothing on paper saying if theyt did or did not shoot at our guys.
But my sources at least are from the military and what you call the finest newspaper in the country !
And now thats not good enough for you ?
Give me a large freeking break dude !
Anyone can type and edit into Wikipedia whatever they want.
So you got two choices here. You can deny the NY Times accuracy and wonderful standards you say it carries or stand by incomplete info from the Wikipedia.
And even though I doubt the wikipedia i checked out about 10 of the inmates rap sheets and it even says that if they werent shooting at us they were caught in safehouses, training camps and on the field.
Now back to the real point at hand here.
I nailed 8 of your claims to the wall and so far your best arguement is that these guys werent shooting at us. Thats pretty weak bro, pretty weak.
Even if you’re right you’re still 1 in 8
Jersey, The French, Mexicans, and Indians might disagree about the “occupying Army” concept – but that’s nit picking – time, education, patience – most importantly the old “SWEAT” acronym… Sewage (or Security), Water, Electricity, Academics, Transportation – these lead to some stability… then we work on homes, families, jobs (hope), then people begin working together. I’m starting to sound like a Democrat – an idealist!!
Exactly, Eagle. That’s why in Europe people would probaly call you a neo-liberal as opposed to any kind of “conservative.”
By the way, you’re analogy, with all due respect, stinks. The French? What? In WWII? They were long since a developed society – long before we Americans, ya’ know. The Mexicans? Yeah, they’ve done really well. The Indians? Yeah, they must be thrilled to have us. Weird, man. Where did you come up with those comparisons? Thin air?
Look, you can not impose “time, education, patience – most importantly the old “SWEAT” acronym… Sewage (or Security), Water, Electricity, Academics, Transportation – these lead to some stability… then we work on homes, families, jobs (hope), then people begin working together” on a people at the point of a gun. These things evolve naturally as humans interact with each other and the world around them. Sometimes they do not. Usually it’s a matter of degrees. But the likelyhood of being able coerce societal advancement is inverse to the problems in that society. “Iraq” – as a unified national entity and concept – has a lot of problems. Dick Cheney knew this once. I guess he forgot.
Iraq is besat with deep-seated religion, tribalism, clanism, institutionalized corruption (by our standards, anyway), while at the same time is haphazardly developed in an amalgam of now unsustainable demographics. Proof? 1/5th of the poulation is displaced and almost half of them abroad – unable to find a place anywhere in this new Iraq. Without a strong central government, grounded in Iraqi custom, Iraq will fail. Federalism will not work in Iraq, and the proxy outsourcing of Iraq’s redevelopement (yes, redevelopement – Iraq was once a premiere Arab State, for all that’s worth) will do nothing to seed their domestic independence.
This war is an abject failure. A miserable colonial oil war. And completely impetuous, irresponsible, utterly ignorant invasion and occupation of a people by a small unprepared force. Pathetic. Any student of history worth their salt should have seen all of this coming. I am no genius, and Lord knows I’ve made stupid mistakes in my life – but I can see that kind of stupid from a mile away. This war was a really stupid mistake.
JMJ
Jersey, You must still be in the TE Lawrence timewarp… I didn’t say anything about the French in WWII… as a history major, you know that the Army made the French conform and give up any rights they were seeking…as happened with the Mexicans and Indians… Twist things to argue. You do ok when you discuss things you know about, like recycling, but in military matters and strategic level discussions concerning “nation-building” and “occupations”, you don’t have legs and must resort to gray lady down rhetoric that has been repeatedly disproven. We aren’t putting a gun to the Iraqis to work together; we are protecting them from that AQI crowd you claim is nonexistent.
I’m ashamed of your shame. And.
I’m ashamed of the ratings driven media.
I’m ashamed of what gets the best ratings.
I’m ashamed of those who can’t find Iraq on a map.
I’m ashamed of congress.
I’m ashamed of those who refuse to believe we are at war.
I’m ashamed of those who refuse to believe 911 was an act of war.
I’m ashamed of those who can’t see the reasons we are fighting.
I’m ashamed of those who bash our soldiers.
I’m ashamed of those who don’t understand why America is America.
There is more, but,
I’m proud that my Grandfather served in WWI.
I’m proud that my Father served in WWII.
I’m proud to have served in Africa during Viet Nam.
I’m proud my Son-in-law serves in Iraq today.
I’m proud to be an American.
Tom Autry
Watonga, OK
I hate waterboarding. Those kids riding around everywhere, on the sidewalks, in parking lots, down the library steps. Those things should be…
Oh.
Darn, Eagle, all I can find is that “seven pillars” thing, but I can’t find the TE Lawernce quote on Iraq (Mesopotamia then).
Eagle, I don’t think you understand the Iraqi situation at all. AQI never was nor is the problem. The problem is the Sunni resistance, and the animosity toward them from the Shi-a and Kurds. AQI played a small part for a while, but that was more for our consumption than the Iraqis. AQI just wanted to stir the pot and keep us in a quagmire. The Iraqis had enough of a quagmire of their own and so drove them, out. Their very ability to do that shows that AQI was never a serious force in Iraq.
Iraq has no real national history, no developed Western traditions regarding politics and economics. France always had all that to one degree or another. Heck, we got a lot of it from them. Mexico has that through the West, but the conquest of Mexico never brought Western advancement to Mexico because that was never the goal. And native Americans I won’t even get into. Without gambling, they’d still be the very poorest Americans, and I believe they still are as a rule anyway.
As a history major who knows his military history pretty well, I do not get your analogy. To find better analogies, one would simplt look at the history of colonialism – and post-colonialism – in the Middle East. Any rational reading of that would tell you that things do not bode well for meddlers in that part of the world. We may end up wth something far worse than Saddam one of these days, thanks to this extremely foolish – and historically ignorant – war. To the Arabs, our imposition of federalist republicanism is really no different than the Brits imposition of the Hasemites that is the foundation of the Islamist movement in the first place. You can’t just invade an Arab land and force “democracy” on them. It’s stupid to even try. Any even perochial reading of history would inform a ten year old as much.
JMJ
What are you talking about Jersey ?
First of all you conveniently just walk away from our debate over KSM and cruise into some meaningless conversation over what you perceive as a colonial oil driven war.
Your opinions have never ever been able to support your position on the war.
Because that’s all that you,ve ever been able to debate with is opinions. The facts have always said otherwise from what you say. There is no evidence anywhere to support your claim that Iraq is a colonial oil driven war. That is code pink nut rhetoric.
You talk about staying on theme all the time. So what does Iraq have to do with KSW? Please, tell me.
JMJ;
“AQI never was nor is the problem. ”
That’s just incredibly ignorant. ” Never”? “Nor is”?
What planet have you been on ?
The majority of the resources in the recent surge have been used to chase Al Queda out of Karbal, An Najaf, Fallujah and practically all of the southern and western sections in Iraq.
But if you must go into Iraq lets at least be somewhat honest about things. Neither the Sunnis or the Shiite would be in business if it weren’t for Iran. Iran has been shipping weapons to both sides in the hope that they would destroy everything around them. Doing Iran’s dirty work for them by proxy.
These people needed money a lot more than they were ever concerned with ruling or controlling anything. And that was where Iran came in to the picture.
Al Queda had a definite interest in control of Iraq’s oil and constituting the same kind of stronghold the Italian exercised in Afghanistan.
In the last 6 months and since the successes of the surge neither Sunni or Shiite want anything to do with either side anymore. It only took them about 5 years to realize they were being played. And that the US holds the best interest for them.
And the Iraqis did not drive out Al Queda. The Iraqis pointed them out to our troops and set up neighborhood watch’s in their respective provinces. Our soldiers drove them out with intelligence derived from the Iraqis.
Iraq’s national history, Mexico, France ? So what the hell does any of that have to do with the price of tea in China ?
You just want to bang on your chest and start quoting historical events so as to sound like you know what you are talking about.
You would think that the study habits and criteria of a history buff as yourself would lead him to be able to bring up true and credible resources.
As far as meddling in the middle east goes. Its always been a cluster**** with or without anyone’s help. America has tried to broker so many peace deals with carrots and sticks for all sides and it JUST NEVER WORKS.
And to let that part of the world go to hell in a hand basket would be a catastrophic blow to our economy and our national security. So I don’t give crap whether you think its colonialism or oil driven. Because your pretence that those are the reasons up front for this war are simple minded and foolish.
Yes its about oil. But not for profit. Its about securing what we need to keep our country and economy from collapsing.
Oil profits ? Hah! By the time you slap on the cost of the war that’s some pretty damn expensive oil !
Colonialism ? That’s a joke and a half. If anything I see a three state solution happening with Iraqis dividing up the oil revenues.
And I still stick my belief that we never went to Iraq with hearts and minds and democracy in mind. We went there so we could plop our butts down right in the middle of the whole hornets nest and keep an eye on a part of the world that has been a growing threat for America for decades now. So its about time we made a presence and said hey ! Whatever you guys have been doing all this time it hasn’t been working very well now , has it ?
It is in Americas greatest interest to create stability in the middle east. The more unstable it becomes the greater its threat to us becomes. That part of the world is one of the most unsuccessful regions in the world ever, and it has been that way for centuries. Enough already ! Besides that a lot of other countries and their economies have a vested interest in middle east stability also.
As far as” forcing democracy “goes I beg to differ and say that it was offered to the Iraqis. I have not seen very many Iraqis complaining that there government was forced upon them. They were elected by the people. The Brit’s
And they were not ” forced “to get in line for days so they could vote.
How much parochial reading would disclose any other Arab nations invaded by westerners ?
It seems as if your whole approach to the war has been based on whether it was worth it or not to go in and get rid of Saddam. If thats where you’re coming from then of course you will hold the simple opinion you do.
Anyone who can think on more than one dimension will tell you that was the last reason we went in. But Saddam gave us every right, reason and excuse to do what was in our countrys best interest.
“Al Queda had a definite interest in control of Iraq’s oil and constituting the same kind of stronghold the Italian exercised in Afghanistan.”
Dont know how the Italians got into that line , it should say Taliban.
Maybe I’m hungry.
What about KSM? Try him. Have a trial. Let’s see the evidence. What I’d like to know is why now? Why not much sooner? Why a military trial? Where’s the war that KSM is involved with? The whole GWOT is a joke.
JMJ
I answerd all that, where were you ?
GWOT is a joke.
And you and I are long lost twins.
What evidence do you have that this war on terror is a joke.
Are the terrotist part of eveyones imagination ?
The “war on terror” is nonsense. Like Gore Vidal said, “It’s like a war on dandruff.” I still can’t believe the American people were silly enough to buy into it.. There should be no war. Terrorists are criminals, not warring nation states.
JMJ
Jersey, Micky provided some useful and insightful information to the argument, but let me address a couple things.
I know the quote – but I have it on disk in another state and won’t be able to get to it until next week – I am not denying he said something to the effect that Arabs don’t operate the way “we” do (British and Americans). I cited a similar passage from UNDERSTANDING ARABS a couple weeks ago, comparing Arabs to Democrats – it was tongue-in-cheek, but some truth, nonetheless. “Arabs believe in persons, not in institutions. They have a long tradition of personal appeal to authorities for exceptions to rules….Arabs place great value on personal interviews and on giving people the opportunity to state their case. They are not comfortable filling out forms or dealing with an organization impersonally. They want to know the name of the top person who makes the final decision…Arabs respond much more readily to personalized arguments than to attempts to impose “logical” conclusions…”
Your point about Shia, Sunni, and Kurds not getting along is well-taken, but it is much deeper than that – not even the individual tribes within each of the three groups don’t get along, for the most part, and they are all looking for that free lunch or entitlement package from Uncle Sugar. But, as Micky implies, there were thousands and thousands of purple-skinned Arabs who defied death to vote – so they WANT democracy, albeit they haven’t seen “what right looks like” in several decades.
The French, Mexico, Indian reference was to their being here, and “our” occupying Army beating the crap out of them, forcing democracy…but they weren’t forcing democracy, they were simply forcing everyone who was fighting against US expansion, Manifest Destiny, et al to get the heck out of the way. We beat that horse to Purina.
I’m really at a loss on how to respond to ” I don’t think you understand the Iraqi situation at all.” I was in charge of a battalion that trained over 45,000 Soldiers to deploy to both Iraq and Afghanistan. Part of this training was understanding the threat and rules of engagement. In order to develop viable training plans, I attended the Counter Insurgency (COIN) Academy in Taji and conducted missions with various Army and Iraqi units and the Iraqi National Police in Rustamiya, Anuemenya (sp), and Baghdad. Now, as part of my train up for a year’s tour as a Team Chief for a MTT of an Iraqi Brigade, I am required to read, attend classes, and participate in practical exercises that include current threat, cultural awareness, and training the trainer (i.e. training the Iraqis to train themselves – our ultimate goal for stability). So no wonder we are in such a quagmire over there… My counterparts and I don’t understand the Iraqi situation at all!
Call it what you want, it takes the military to execute the needed actions.
A group of people across the planet have said themselves that they are waging war on all things western including America.
Like a child you deny the war on terror only because the phrase was coined by a man you hate only because you disagree with him.
If anyone is silly its you. And I have proven it to the point of you being hammerd into the ground with nothing left to say against the evidence that shows you to be a little more than delusional.
You accuse the one state rep party of being the reason for 911. All the facts show you couldnt be more wrong.
You have no answer or response to over 1/2 of my questions or answers to your questions.
You have accused me of misquoting you and yet were never able to show me the misquote.
You offer an opinion that the war on terror is a joke. But thats all it is, an opinion.
Once again, I on the other have have shown tons of evidence to prove that the war is actually real and justified.
Afghanistan was taken over by Taliban forces loyal to Al Queda and functioning out of a soveriegn country, using it as a traing base to launch trained terrorist across the globe.
Maybe we should wait untill they dominate another country like they did Afghanistan before we can use the military or use the word “war”.
Lets wait till the movement in northern Pakistan spreads across a whole country whom of which 52% speak favorably of Bin Laden ?
You’re statement and arguement is void of any real evidence context other than an opinion drawn from irrational hate. And especially silly when you try to use some over imaginative screw ball like Gore Vidal who is a fifth cousin of Jimmy Carter, and a cousin of Al Gore to back it up.
The least you could out of any self respect is find a somewhat reputable elected official to repeat what you say.
Al, what I meant about your understanding was about history and culture. For example, your point about people v institutions is relatively true. But you must also consider the long held cultural practices regarding commerce and regulation. What we call egregious malfeasance and corruption, they call normal business practice. How can you hhave a functional free market and responsible regulation of it when what we would call malfeasance and corruption is the norm? How can you have federalist republicanism under those circumstances?
But mostly it comes down to this – we have humiliated the people of Iraq. We have infuriated the Arab world, who for perfectly understandable historical reasons, view us as yet another imperialist infidel on their Holy lands.
Lunacy.
Micky,
“You accuse the one state rep party of being the reason for 911.”
That’s a lie. Please don’t lie about me. I said that the timing of 9/11, in my opinion, was set with the election of a reactionary president by the name of Bush.
JMJ
JMJ;
” what we would call malfeasance and corruption is the norm? ”
This is the reason for the decades of instability in the middle east. These so called ” normal ” practices have worked their way right into all their govements and economic practices. Its not our fault as radical Islam would have the world believe. “Invasion of the holy land” is just a front phrase used by those who wont tell the world what their real motives are. These Arabs have absolutly no problem whatsoever with taking our money. How do you think they would react if after 911 we shipped off every middle easterner back to the “holy land?” Gimme a large break, please.
And if we dont stabalize the middle east, we’re screwed.
Jersey McJones said,
December 31, 2007 at 8:25 am
“Personally, Micky, I am quite convinced that Al Qaeda attacked us on 9/11 BECAUSE Bush and the GOP became the one party ruling majority.”
You said nothing about opinion or timing, you said you were “convinced” as in conviction ,and convicted to the point of guilt.
Its a whole bunch of poo poo because any fool knows the plans took well over 5 years to execute. And in bin Ladens own words he said it did noit matter who was running the country.
Its not a lie, its a whole lotta truth on the contrary.
I dont lie and you did say “because” Bush and the gop…
That is what you call “blame” in the english language.
restudy it.
Jersey, I get where you are coming from, and I have to revert back to my idealogical reality (how’s that for an oxymoron?)… time, education, and patience. There are many mini and sub cultures here in the States that will likely never go away…to include feuds among gangs, racketeering, and mafia-like organizations, but for the most part, we have a system that works. If we can make it work with the melting pot here, it can certainly work in a country where the differences are not as great – I don’t know the outcome, but I’m willing to give my best effort to make it work in my little area.
Al, I just don’t believe that the Middle East is ready for it yet, and I don’t think we have the time, patience, manpower, and money to force, coerce, or asist the kind of change we want in there. And to be honest, I do not believe the motives of our powers that be are so benevolent. I also don’t think the people there want any of it – be it beign, benevolent, malignant, or whatever else we believe it to be. As Sam Harris once wrote, and I paraphrase, if you give these people democracy the first thing they’ll do it vote it away – let alone our version of it shoved down their collective throat. And for this we spend thousands of lives and trillions of dollars??? Not only do I think it wasn’t and itsn’t worth it – I think it’s absolutely insane. I think you are a commendable and honorable man, but I think our nation should not be wasting people like you on such fanciful missions.
Micky, I did not say, “the one state rep party (is) the reason for 911.” I simply believe that AQ and OBL timed it for then because they knew such a timing would be optimal for the effects they were seeking. That’s all. Very simple point. It doesn’t mean that they wouldn’t have attacked at some other time or under some other circumstances. It simply means that they felt the time and circumstances were optimal to their cause. You can disagree, but when you read OBL’s and AQ’s statements, it seems clear to me.
And by the way, you are incessantly spinning and misrepresenting my statements. Let’s debate on each other’s level, and not stoop to Fox News-esque sleaziness, please. Do you really misunderstand me that often? I don’t get it.
JMJ
Al,
I’m sorry. I shouldn’t have said “wasting.” Let’s just call it “utilizing.”
My apologies.
JMJ
Jersey, No apologies necessary – we simply have different views. It was hard bringing Asians into the “American way of life”, from the railroad days to today, but they are thriving. It was hard incorporating Blacks into free society following the Civil War and early ’50’s, but tremendous progress has been made. It was hard incorporating native Indians into American society, and arguments can be made that we still haven’t had success. From a larger perspective, though, we have a pretty good country. Of course, this begs the argument that we had a national “will” as a country, and the Iraqis don’t have that will. Point taken. I’m still a fan of Johnny Appleseed, and I don’t believe the seeds of democracy need to only be planted and nurtured here – as a former isolationist, I think the world has shrunk too much to let the Middle East “develop” on its own. There are many other places that also need seeds, and we seem to have conveniently ignored them, but again, my opinion is we are conducting triage – let’s stop the bleeding in the most critical spots first and work from there.
Jersey, One other silly point… When in Iraq, I was astounded at the trash and filth everywhere, and my first impression is that these people are disgusting and not worth the effort – at the National Police Academy, some of the candidates p…ed and crapped in the corner of the stairwells because they were too lazy to go outside. And I remembered many times our own Soldiers did the same thing at different training areas. While running along the street in my neighborhood, I pass empty beer bottles, dvds, and all sorts of trash that people hurl from their vehicles… which tells me we are just as nasty and filthy as individuals as they are… the differences are, we have a strong NCO corps to enforce discipline within the services, and we have a developed national trash collection and system of fines to maintain some semblance of cleanliness. It took many, many years for us to develop this infrastructure.
JMJ;
“timed it for then because they knew such a timing would be optimal for the effects they were seeking.”
There is no way they could of known 5 years ahead of time who would be in office in order to “time it right’
Give it up. It makes you look disengenuous and squirmy.
And yea, I’m the one who quoted Bin Laden in that debate so I dont need you to tell me what his own words were. he clearly said it doesnt matter ” who” is in office at the time or anytime there after..
I know you dont get it. Because here on this thread http://blacktygrrrr.wordpress.com/2008/02/01/obama-vs-hillarymano-a-womano/#comments I asked you to show me where I misquoted you and you couldnt.
micky2 said,
February 4, 2008 at 7:18 pm
It would help if you could show me where I misquoted you , since you are accusing me it would seem only appropriate if you do some work on your own.
JMJ;
“Show me my quotes, Micky. Go ahead. Show me that you are not either misquoting me or spinning.”
Jersey McJones said,January 21, 2008 at 7:02 am
“I think the war is a complete failure and disaster overall.”
I”LL BET THE TROOPS JUST LOVE HEARING THAT ONE.
January 23, 2008 at 2:39 PM
I suggest you go to that thread and see if you clear up that accusation you placed on me.
I completely agree that we should encourage development in the ME. It is vital in this new interconnected, interdependent world in which we live. There are many ways this can be done. But mass invasions and occupations are beyond the pale. Afghanistan was a different story. We had no choice. But rather than put the sort of effort into Afghanistan that it required, we went into Iraq, and there we did have a choice. We made the wrong one.
From what I understand, Iraq was once a pretty clean country. They had a pretty well-developed phyiscal and institutional infrastructure. Wars ruined all that – and not just this latest one. And that gets to a much broader point…
Wars ruin nations. They ruin empires. They ruin civilizations. And it’s not just the places where wars or fought, or just the combatants, or victors or vanquished. Wars are necessary at times, there can be no denying that, but in almost all cases (all that I know of) wars are avoidable. They come down to choices; good, bad, or indifferent. Hitler chose to invade Poland, and the Brits made the choice to fight them back. Bad choice/good choice. Either way, without that initial bad choice, the war would not have happened. Iraq was a choice. A bad choice.
Most all the great empires died because of war, as I’m sure you’re aware, but not because they were defeated, or invaded, or were beaten on the battlefield – but because they over-extended, went into debt, and over-utilized their forces. From Rome to the Soviet Union this has been the case. Are we next?
JMJ
“Are we next?” Absolutely! Right, wrong, or indifferent, what made this country what it was 200, 150, 100, and 50 years ago was the fact that we imposed our will on everybody and everything. Our forefathers believed, rightly or wrongly, that we were pre-destined by a higher power to spread freedom from within and without…and we kicked the crap out of anyone who stood in our way – from the Indian massacres using bullets and disease-infested blankets, to expanding in the Southwest, to nuking the Japanese… were all these things necessary and/or “right”? It doesn’t matter – it’s what supposedly made this country what it is today. We, as a nation, have gotten comfortable and will be destroyed from within because we do not respect our heritage. Does saying this make me a hawk? Maybe, but I also believe in the laws of nature – in order to build muscle, you must first tear it down. Likewise with countries who are ruled by tyrants.
Al, I don’t see the comparison. We did not impose our will on everybody and everything. We were and are mostly the world’s unwanted left-overs who happened upon a vast, resource rich, untapped, mostly unpeopled continent. We are an empire in reverse – the people came to the empire as opposed to the empire coming to the people. With all due respect, I don’t see any reasonable comparison. And even if you were to explefy Africans and Native Americans, you’d be hard=pressed to find an upside without a 200 year occupation – double McCain’s prognostication!
Iraq is a colonial expeditionary war. And those are the sorts of wars that brought down empires in the end. Our Founding Fathers knew this. It’s ashame we have so arrogantly dismissed their wisdom.
JMJ
I don’t think we “happened” on this land – it was already occupied… so we didn’t impose our will on the Indians through massacre, disease, and reservations? We didn’t impose our will during Manifest Destiny? War of 1812, WWI, WWII? We quit imposing our will in Korea, and we are still paying the price. The threat from Iraq is much greater than from Afghanistan. In fact, it will take more time to “fix” Afghanistan than Iraq. Our Founding Fathers knew that if you went after something, you followed through to the end… and Lincoln borrowed from the Bible in saying a nation divided cannot stand… Johnny Appleseed will not be deterred!!
Jersey, you said, ” Wars ruin nations. They ruin empires. They ruin civilizations. ”
First, identifying Iraq as a ‘civilization’ is like calling Haiti a ‘successful cultural experiment’. Having been to both places, I can tell you that before our involvement with both countries, neither would qualify as being even remotely oxygen-worthy.
Running sewer and water: um, sure, if we’re talking about drinking your neighbor’s waste water. Ever seen a purple lake?
Effective/Efficient/Existing Form of Government? Nope and nope. Neither country is capable of maintaining anything remotely resembling a civil and/or rational system of making laws, enforcing laws, or even knowing right from wrong. Guess what other species do well in a dictatorship? Animals and insects.
Al, the Native Americans were a small population, and some estimates put the numbers who died from our diseases before they ever even set eyes on us at upwards of 50%. The Natives never stood a chance.
I’m afraid we’ll just have to agree to disagree with the rest of it. It makes no sense to me. Iraq was never a serious threat. Now they may be – but that’s all history now. We’re stuck there, the least we can do is admit our horrific mistake, mend our ways, and try to do things right over there. Once our crooked administration is gone, perhaps we can act more in the interests of the Iraqis, and their crooked government will clean itself up.
—
Keywork, I don’t know how much you know about modern history, but Iraq was a premiere Arab state, for whatever that’s worth, before the wars. It’s a mess now, yes, but that’s what happens when you are at incessant war for 25 years. Now of course I’m not saying it was some kind of Utopia, but it certainly was the pile of smelly ruins that it is today.
No one wants another dictatorship in the ME, but it beats all-out civil war or radical theocracy! Some kind of strong-man central government is in order. As Voltaire said, the best one can hope for in the way of good government is a good king. Of course, that’s a matter of degrees. Even a lousy democracy is better than a lousy king, after all. But in Iraq, Palestine, Turkey (recently), and all the other ME “democracies,” the people have shown that they are not ready for Western democracy. What Iraq needs is a good Marshall Tito sort of fellow, but Bush and Co wouldn’t let that let that happen. Remember, Tito was a pain in the Soviets behind. Perhaps a better human being in the White House can help to get better human beings running Iraq.
JMJ
Jersey McJones said,
December 31, 2007 at 8:25 am
“Personally, Micky, I am quite convinced that Al Qaeda attacked us on 9/11 BECAUSE Bush and the GOP became the one party ruling majority.”
You can squirm and call me a liar and obfuscate and start changing your story all you want.
First of all you say you are “convinced”
Second of all you say it is “BECAUSE” the GOP ” BECAME”. That was past tense and was present tense on 911.
In that statement you say absolutly nothing about “TIMING” as you tried to elude to.
And if AQ was “TIMING it . They were only timing what took 5 years to plan and accomplish.
I’m not going to sit here and have you accuse me of misquoting a simple and clear statement and call me a liar and get away with it .
This is the second time in 2 weeks that you have accused me of misquoting you and not followed up on it.
Both times now you pick up a debate with someone else and carry on as if nothing happened.
On this day
Jersey McJones said,
February 4, 2008 at 12:39 pm
Micky, how dare you put words in my mouth? I never said either one of those things. There are only two reasons you could say that I did – 1) You can’t figure out what I was talking about or 2) you are lying. So, which is it?
Go to the thread ! I dare you !
I showed you the quotes you claimed I put in your mouth. Instead apologizing you just ran away and carried on as if nothing.
And now you are doing again it with this last statement that clearly says If it werent for Bush 911 would not of happened.
So please, dont work me like some kind of ignoramous by throwing in this statement;
“And by the way, you are incessantly spinning and misrepresenting my statements. Let’s debate on each other’s level, and not stoop to Fox News-esque sleaziness, please. Do you really misunderstand me that often? I don’t get it.
Incessantly ?
You bring it upon yourself by making totally ludacris statements.
“Let’s debate on each other’s level,”
No ! absolutly not !
Lets debate on a level that is not full of hate spawned rhetoric at every chance you get.
And lets not debate at a level where you think your word is gospel and everyone should just accept and take your word for everything without something to back it up?
“and not stoop to Fox News-esque sleaziness’
You have your nerve even suggesting that FOX is sleazy. And its just another example again of you slipping in hate spawned rhetoric at every chance you get.
I would be proud to be as accurate and fair as FOX is compared to the rest of the networks. You just dont like them because they dont push the left agenda, thats all.
” Do you really misunderstand me that often?’
I’m an intelligent man. Dont insinuate anything else by suggesting that I misunderstand you, ever. You are not Einstein by any means at all.
If you cannot answer to your claims of me misquoting you on the previous thread or this one I will have no choice but to look at you in lesser terms than I have before.
And assume that you cant stand the humility of saying once in a while that you are wrong.
Micky, chill out.
JMJ
Whats the matter Jersey ?
You can throw out all the false, misleading, mocked up accusations you want about any world affair or any other person that you want.( Without anything to back it up as usual.)
But you’re not going to do it to me and just walk away.
If you’re going to accuse me of something at least prove it !
Put up or shut up !
As it stands you are wrong.
You want classy debate ? Then stop saying things that cant be backed up or that you cant defend and I’ll be more than glad to follow up and respond in a gentleman like manner.
Micky, you hang too much on pedantics. Debate the merits of arguments instead of all this silliness.
JMJ
Jersey, I know plenty about Iraq, it is a cursed land. I’m no preacher, but I think you will find that even in biblical times, Iraq was in a state of constant turmoil. This is not characteristic of a ‘premiere state’. Really. That land has been under attack for years upon years upon more years. So they had a few years of prosperity here and there, overall, the people of that country have proven time and time again that prosperity is not something they are willing to work for.
There really are some similarities between the Indians and the Iraqis… about the only thing the Indians have going for them now (ok, a generalized statement that doesn’t apply to ALL Indians) is the gambling trade which parallels the Iraqi oil discoveries (US led), which has been fairly recent. If one puts stock in the Bible, it is a cursed country.
Jersey – no problem with disagreeing – I really do share most of your concerns but am totally 180 from your views on President Bush. Regardless of how his policies and the war have been prosecuted, I will go to my grave believing him to be a righteous, caring man. A new administration won’t change much – I’m the greatest referee in the world when I’m on the sidelines, but once the guys are banging heads, it becomes s different story!
Well, I understand your sentiment, Keywork. Really, it could be said from the Egypt to Mesopotamia, Arabia to the Caucasus. Lord knows I wouldn’t want to live over there! but on the other hand, I don’t believe in curses. From an anthropolical point of view, it could be said that the main reason that region has been so turbulent over the years has to do with it’s geographic location. As the cross roads of Indo-Eurpoe, this once lush region has seen uncounted masses of migrations over the millenia, right up to the recreation of Israel. As all these different people came together and through each other, turmoil was inevitible. Prosperity will come some day, as is has before. But for now there will continue to be turmoil. Best we just keep it at arms length.
JMJ
Al,
“There really are some similarities between the Indians and the Iraqis… about the only thing the Indians have going for them now (ok, a generalized statement that doesn’t apply to ALL Indians) is the gambling trade which parallels the Iraqi oil discoveries (US led),”
LOL! Fair point. But there were never nearly as many Native Americans as there are Iraqis, and they were far, far outnumbered by Europeans, not the other way around. The oil was initially British led. So far we’ve accomplished nothing in that arena.
“If one puts stock in the Bible, it is a cursed country.”
See my above repose to Keywork. ;) I’m not religious, and I don’t believe in curses. I think the turbulence over there is quite understandable, and history would suggest that this too shall pass.
“A new administration won’t change much”
I completely agree with that!
“- I’m the greatest referee in the world when I’m on the sidelines, but once the guys are banging heads, it becomes s different story!”
LOL!
JMJ
I’m very much religiously unaffiliated, I don’t approve of any form of organized religion. It’s all wrong in my book. Not much for curses either, but if you look at the bible as a literary work, it serves us with some knowlege of days long gone. Like I said, I’ve been there. I’ve visited the ruins of Babylon. I’ve conversed with the people. I’ve done other things there as well, and the general sentiment is that they would rather be tortured by someone and thrown a bone every now and again as opposed to enjoying freedom. The people there are victims of their own grief and any prosperity they experience will be momentary at best.
Pedantics ?
Hope you’re having a good time with Al and all your smiley faces. Just confirming what I said yesterday in comment #32.
You.ve accused me twice of misquoting you.And I’ll ask you again to prove it.
You keep getting up on your high horse and asking for honest debate.
Now, like the gentleman you claim to be show me where I misquoted you or lied.
Well, Keywork, through all human history there are cycles. Prosperity will come again. But not for now. Remember when our (?) European ancesters were living like dogs in the woods, those people were living in established civilizations. When our ancestors reverted to the Dark Ages, they were enjoying a paxos Islam. There is a time for all things.
Micky, look man, you’re either misunderstanding me, misrepresenting me, or I speak Greek. Which is it?
JMJ
Hmmmm. No, I tend to think species evolve. The only thing Iraqis can do consistently is stand in the shade to avoid the heat. No work ethic. Wow, that sounds so familiar….but I digress. Time is no guarantee for any species, and believe me, they don’t have the means or technology or willpower to prosper again. If I’m wrong about this, I’ll go liberal and wear a Jersey T-shirt. I may get shot, but I’m a man of my word.
You just dont want to go there do you ?
You cant handle it !
Your last comment is so far off the mark its obvious your running like a chicken with no head.
Keywork,
Remember, evolution is not determinitive. It has no particular direction. It is just the combination of chance and environment leading to change over time. That’s it – change over time. Not “good change” or “bad change,” as these concepts are subjective. Just change. One day America will probably be a hellhole too. It’s just a matter of when.
Unfortunately, I don’t think we’ll see much societal advance in the ME in our lifetimes (another reason I think we should just avoid that region as much as possible). I don’t think it can even begin in that direction until they finally one day run out of oil, personally. So maybe, just maybe, if there’s a God and a Heaven, one day you can wear that t-shirt for me up there and we’ll have a laugh.
Micky, you’re giving me indigestion. It’s Valentines Day, man. Lighten up!
JMJ
You gave me something I cant say on this blog.
But it has to do with insight and absolutly nothing to do with Valentines.
You and Valentines should not even be in the same sentence unless its being referd to 1929.
When it comes to you and Valentines being in my mind at the same time I get a severe case of cognitive dissonance
LOL!
JMJ