A debate about God between intellectual titans took place at Baht Yam Synagogue on Thursday, May 1st, 2008.
Dennis Prager offered the Jewish perspective. Dinesh D’Souza offered the Christian perspective. Christopher Hitchens offered the Atheist perspective.
While the opening statements of all three men were impressive, the red meat of the evening were the rebuttals and cross examinations.
Rather than offer any analysis, this column shall remain descriptive in nature in the spirit of William Shakespeare, who is rumored to have said, “The play is the thing.”
The analysis shall be left to the readers of the Tygrrrr Express.
With that, below are the rebuttals and cross examinations of the debate participants.
Hitchens: Mr. Prager claims that there are secular roots of anti-semitism. This is not true. The worst anti-semitism has come in the form of Catholic right wing fascism.
Prager: There was no secularism until the Philosophes of the 18th century. Hatred goes back 3000 years. There are no secular roots when there is no secularism. Yet most anti-semitism today comes from the secular left.
Hitchens: The worst anti-semitism comes from Hamas and other practitioners of Islamofacism, who are the brothers of Jews and Christians. 60 years ago it was Catholic right wing extremism. Now it is Islamic right wing extremism where anti-semitism flourishes.
Hitchens: The Pope claims that there is only one true Christianity. Mr. D’Souza, how do you feel about that?
D’Souza: I do not know how I feel about that. I am a Catholic. My wife is an evangelical Christian. I consider myself a “Neo-Christian.”
Hitchens: This is why religion is a “clerical cafeteria.” People take bits and pieces and choose whatever fits. True Catholicism requires that one reject all other forms of Christianity. This is a “soft ecumenicalism.”
D’Souza: Atheism is parochial. Christianity states that Judaism is true. Catholicism places one’s conscience as greater than the Pope. Atheism is intolerant.
Prager: Mr. Hitchens, do you ever at any time doubt your Atheism?
Hitchens: Atheism is based on doubt, but I never believe in God. I have tried to doubt Atheism and believe in God. I cannot. The laws of biology did not emanate from some divine cloud.
Prager: Arrogance comes in the form of certitude. Religious people question their own beliefs. Atheism is dogmatic. Religious people are much more openminded. As for the early challenge of finding good actions by religious people that secularists can’t do, I am now ready to collect my prize. Pearl and Sam Oliner of Humboldt University wrote the “Book on Altruism.” It discusses the rescuers of Jews during the Holocaust. The Jews during the Holocaust were not knocking on doors of doctors and other secular professionals. They were knocking on doors for the people who would help them. They wanted the Priests to save them. The Priests helped save them because God told them to help their fellow man from evil.
Hitchens: Jews did not turn to the Churches. The Churches were aligned with Hitler and Mussolini. They celebrated Hitler’s birthday every year until 1945. Documents of Jews were turned over so Nuremberg laws could be enforced. Not one Church leader was excommunicated over this. Nazi leaders were not excommunicated for this, not Heidrich or Himmler. Joseph Goebbels was excommunicated for intermarrying with anther denomination of Christian.
Prager: Mr. D’Souza, do you believe that Jews, who reject Jesus, are safe?
D’Souza: Yes. The bible talks about Abraham in Heaven, long before Jesus. My evangelical wife would agree, albeit with further discussion. Christianity argues for the God of Israel, and universalizes it.
D’Souza: Mr Hitchens, religion has brought much good and beauty into Western culture, from the music of Bach to the beautiful gigantic cathedrals. Can you see any good in religion?
Hitchens: I see secularists being murdered by religious cults. One can have culture without superstition and the supernatural.
D’Souza: Zeus did not destroy the Parthenon.
Hitchens: Belief in cults, aka religion, was often coerced. Temples based on human sacrifices were a bad idea of religion.
D’Souza: Where is the Christian Bin Laden? Where is the Christian Hamas?
Hitchens: In the 1930s, it was the Roman Catholic Church that was the most dangerous. Religions take turns. Northern Ireland had their time. Now it is the Islamofascists turn.
D’Souza: Some secularists argue that Jesus Christ was fictional. How can this be? There are only two sources for Socrates, one of which was Plato. How can opne follow Socrates when Jesus had many more sources in terms of proof of existence?
Hitchens. There is no proof of Socrates. I have often stated that I can revere the Socratic Method without Socrates.
D’souza: All historical figured have fragmentary evidence.
Hitchens: Alexander the Great has coins in his name. Jesus has only fan support. There is no evidence of Jesus or Moses. We have found the graves of the Macedonians. Where is Jesus’s grave?
D’Souza” Mr. Prager has stated that the Old Testament God is vengeful? How does that get explained? The Christian God is loving.
Prager: With regards to God’s vengeance, wrath was inflicted upon those that committed evil. Israel’s enemies were wiped out because of their evil. Evil was child sacrifice. The greatness of the Hebrew bible is that it is filled with self criticism. Jews judge all people including Pagans by their decency. Christians judge people by their beliefs, where everyone ends up in Hell. The Old Testament says “Love thy neighbor.”
Hitchens: The advantage of Judaism is because it had an equal relationship with Hellenism. The heretics were Christians. Judaism is intellectually superior to Christianity. Torturing one to death (Jesus) to absolve others is hideous. 99.8% of species cease to exist. Earth is the only planet to exist. The universe is exploding away. We are heading to nothingness. Only an unkind designer, a cruel and indifferent one, would create something only to destroy it.
Prager: I desire a just world, a world with no child rape, war, or pre-menstrual syndrome. Death gives meaning to life. Meaning is what makes me read and get out of bed. The alternative to an unjust world is worse. Judaism leads to repairing the world. In the same day we circumcise a child for it’s health, the eight day of the world is circumcision repairing. As for cultural achievements without the supernatural, the death of God has led to the death of culture. Music and art today suck. Secularism has led to fecal paintings and blood smearings. Secularism is an empty chamber.
D’Souza: Has the principle of virtue been invented by Theism? Yes, in the form of abolishing slavery. Western civilization fought against slavery. Slavery was controversial in the modern era, and objected to by Quakers and evangelicals that believed the notion that all men are created equal, and that no man can rule another. Representative democracy requires consent. There were no Atheist anti-slavery movements anywhere. Hitler’s “Mein Kampf” supports Christianity from 1933 to 1936 solely to appease the German churches. The book “Hitler’s Table Talk” offers complete venom towards Christianity. Heidrich and Himmler wanted to destroy the churches. Mr. Hitchens blames crimes of Christians on Christianity, yet he also blames crimes of Atheists on Christianity. This is cheating. Peace loving Atheists are therefore to blame for secular killers. Pol Pot was only a “little Atheist.” After all, he was not as bad as Stalin or Mao or Kim Jong Il. Pol pot only killed two million people.
Hitchens: Hitler’s men hated the church, but they still groveled at it. I am not responsible for Pol Pot unless I feel that the Khmer Rouge were just misunderstood cultural reformers. I do not. North Korea is not secular. North Korea is led by a religious zealot. The people are taught that Kim Jong Il is the reincarnation of Kim Il Sung. The son is the reincarnation of the father. That is only one short of the trinity. Stalinism is equal to the Czar in terms of tactics. The only nation to have a written secular Constitution is the USA, and it works. Slavery was biblical in birth. The South said, “God is on our side. God will vindicate us.” Ben Franklin and other Founding Fathers had no God. Not all is just, but order and design give way to chaos and collapse. Misery is not my problem, and a penis needing to be snipped is not very well thought out. A God that sanctions this is heartless.
Prager: Young kids think they are intelligent by asking if God could make a rock so big that even he could not lift it. As adults we realize the utter nonsense of such questions.Celery would be fattening and cheesecake would be healthy if I were God. God is not natural, and God does not need to be started. Only nature does. Try to explain every human cell, or endoplasmic reticulum. Scientists are baffled by this. Saying North Korea is religious is wrong. It is not a God based religion. The human being is designed to find meaning. Secularism has no meaning since it’s all nothing. Religious people believe that life has meaning. Therefore, meaning requires a meaning giver, which is God. Life is not about being trouble free. Life is about meaning. That is what keeps me balanced, God and His Torah.
D’Souza: To quote Winston Churchill, “It is great to be shot at without result.” Slavery only became controversial and criticized by Christendom. Human life had little value in ancient Greece and Rome. Babies died, and were quickly replaced. Thinkers did not care, and the value of life was not thought of. The Founding Fathers cited God in declaring equality and as the source of all of our rights. They adhered to a “Transcendent Creator.” We feel zero guilt as religious people for Stalin and North Korea. The Inquisition killed 2000 people. Yes, even one is too many. Yet ordinary Atheism on a normal afternoon kills more. Atheism is incidental to Marxism based on class and Nazism based on race.
As for the Tygrrrr Express, this is not the final word on the subject. It is not even the final word on the event itself. Even closing statements, which by definition are the conclusion of most events, were not the finale. Those closing statements will be offered soon, followed by questions and answers.
Yet when all was said and done, there were more questions, fewer answers, and thunderous applause for three men that brought a debate that was and is vigorous, vital, and important.
eric
Hitchens:
“One can have culture without superstition and the supernatural”
What fails to get mentioned here is that cultures where religion is either banned or imposed do not do very well at all.
Hitchens;
“The universe is exploding away. We are heading to nothingness. Only an unkind designer, a cruel and indifferent one, would create something only to destroy it.”
Where is this evidence that anything is being destroyed?
On the contrary I believe is just a progression towards more creation
Pretty much only at Temple – almost no Church or Mosque – could an atheist be invited to speak. You gotta love the Jews (especially the Liberal Reformed ones – hehehe…)
“Prager: Mr. D’Souza, do you believe that Jews, who reject Jesus, are safe?
D’Souza: Yes. The bible talks about Abraham in Heaven, long before Jesus. My evangelical wife would agree, albeit with further discussion. Christianity argues for the God of Israel, and universalizes it.”
I’m not sure why D’Souza would think that just because the Bible says Abraham is in Heaven, that Christians would believe that Jews in general would enter the “Pearly Gates.” First, the New Testament erases huge portions of the Old, but this is done rather subjectively. More importantly, when Jesus rises from the Dead in the New Testament, it is not just that he wakes from his spot in the tomb and takes off. He first enters the underworld – not Hell, but rather just a place of the dead-but-not-yet-saved – and arises all the people who have lanquished there awaiting His return. The idea here is that these are people who are given a second chance to receive Him as the Messiah and now may enter Heaven. Be they dead or alive, according to almost all Christian sects, one must accept Jesus as the Savior or Heaven will not await one. Perhaps this is more of D’Sousa’s “soft ecumenicalism.” Lovely thought, but not in any way grounded in theology or sectarianism.
Micky, I think to what Hitchens refers is current popular scientific theory that the universe appears to be endlessly expanding – that the “Big Bang” never really stopped, so to speak, and so the universe is doomed to expand (see Chaos Theory also) until all the matter is dark and spread throughout the infinite vastness. The theory is not universally accepted and may never truly be resolved, and there are other tangentally related theories that could adjust it’s conclusions. As of now, the evidence can be thought of pointing that way.
Also, on that other Hitchens point, if you look at places that have become secular naturally, like in Northern Europe, for example, you see highly developed and successful cultures with relatively little religion. On the other hand, when you look at some of the fastest growing economies in todays Europe, religion is still a mainstay. So the argument cuts both ways. However, these states are all Catholic, who were repressed for many generations (Ireland, Spain, Poland, etc), and so can thank the secular EU for allowing them to catch up. Once they do catch up, the growth will slow. So religion may have more to do with why they were behind then why they’re catching up. I’m not in any way certain about what all this means, but it is interesting.
JMJ
JMJ:
“and so the universe is doomed to expand ”
What would be the reason to view it as “Doom”
JMJ:
“As of now, the evidence can be thought of pointing that way.”
Thought of by whom? Very subjective and hardly a valuable assesment at best.
JMJ:
“successful cultures with relatively little religion”
Read my comment again and stop answering oranges with apples.
I said : “Either banned or imposed”
European governments and cultures still allow the freedom to choose your desired form of worship.
“What would be the reason to view it as “Doom””
I thought that was a good term for describing the state of energy-less, endless blackness. I certainly wouldn’t call it “heckuva party!”
“Thought of by whom? Very subjective and hardly a valuable assesment at best.”
You don’t really stay up on science, do you Micky? Here’s a good recent article:
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=the-end-of-cosmology
(I couldn’t live with my Scientific American subscription!)
“Read my comment again and stop answering oranges with apples.
I said : “Either banned or imposed””
I know, but you were qualifying Mr Hitchens’ argument and so was I.
JMJ
JMJ;
“I thought that was a good term for describing the state of energy-less, endless blackness. I certainly wouldn’t call it “heckuva party!”
JMJ:
“You don’t really stay up on science, do you Micky?”
You partying with your crystal balls again ?
First of all I would like to know how anyone can predict anything that will happen millions of years from now.
Please enlighten me.
Whos to say that some other phenomonal occurance wont take place ?
Like tommorrow or 50 trillion, billion light years from now ?
Yea Jersey, once again you assume because someone is not in line with your thoughts that they are uneducated.
I’ve heard enough theories on the expansion of the universe to know that one of a trillion things could happen.
We could all get sucked into a black hole and find that alternate universe you like to pee into. Who knows ? Might find Jimmy Hoffa or Heaven.
I jusy dont look at it in a negative light so I can make some assinine attempt at making people of faith look like loons.
On the contrary if you are trying to prove with science that God doesnt exist or is a screw up its truly you who needs his head examined.
I said countries that banned or imposed religion dont do well.
You were talking about ones with relatively little religion.
Those are two completely different scenarios.
The point is that freedom of faith allows flourisment in many areas
Micky, all I did was offer a mainstream scientific perspective. Jeez.
” I said countries that banned or imposed religion dont do well.
You were talking about ones with relatively little religion.
Those are two completely different scenarios.
The point is that freedom of faith allows flourisment in many areas”
Micky, you were QUALIFYING another person’s remarks. All I did was offer a different possible qualifier. Jeez man, you go way to far out of your way for a fight.
JMJ
You pissed me off dude, really.
You’re in my cross hairs til I burn off some testosteronies and formulate some more endorphins.
I want you to feel bad and irritated.
Maybe for yours and everyone elses sake you’ll think twice before you flap yer yap
Well, you have me giggling right now. Mission Accomplished? LOL!
JMJ
The universe is expanding, and will not contract. Therefore, it had a beginning, just like the Torah said. In fact, there are is a lot more agreement between current scientific understanding of creation, and the actual fact as described in the Torah.
A dual doctorate in Nuclear Physics and Oceanography from MIT along with high-level research in chemistry and planetary sciences gives Dr. Schroeder a decided edge over many Bible critics. How does this renowned scientist reconcile the Biblical and the scientific accounts of creation to understand what really happened “In the Beginning”?
Here’s what he has to say.”
There are two flaws in this discourse (great listen, by the way, Yonason): 1: He assumes the objectivity of the Talmud and 2: the infallibility of the Big Bang theory. It’s interesting, but purely a rationalization of the Bible from a Hebrew-centric perspective.
JMJ
Eric
Timeless message that doesn’t get learned embraced and practiced enough by People all over the world. Apathy eventually Kills.
First they came for….
http://imustimes.wordpress.com/2008/05/09/let-us-all-learn-by-the-example-of-martin-neimoller/
Wow, Laree, that was great. It reminds me of the War on Drugs and the War on Terror. Authoritarian conservatives need to think these things through.
JMJ
Yea well Jersey. It applies to everyone as much as you would like to spin it as if only conservatives have something to learn.
Dont even try to begin to tell me that there are no autocratic, dictative authoritarians on the left.
The mentallity reflected applies to anyone with an agenda driven by selfishness.
“Dont even try to begin to tell me that there are no autocratic, dictative authoritarians on the left.”
Hitler, Mussolini, and Stalin are only considered “right-wing” by current left-wingers. Honest historians see the link between American progressivism, current sucularist, liberals, the left’s love of communism, socialism and anti-capitalism, and the socialist and facists of the early part of the 20th century.
Wanna see for yourself? “Liberal Facism” by Jonah Goldberg is a good place to start.
JMJ
“There are two flaws in this discourse (great listen, by the way, Yonason):”
They have to be, don’t they, otherwise you are on very thin ice…
“1: He assumes the objectivity of the Talmud”
That’s not essential to the argument. He merely mentions the Torah to bring out the amazing and increasing parallells between science and Torah. That is one of the “predictions” made by the Jewish sages for over a thousand years. Not a “proof” but strong evidence that can’t be pushed off as casually as you try to do.
“…2: the infallibility of the Big Bang theory”
No, he doesn’t. He’s taking it for what it is, the best data scientists have as yet come up with. And he’s doing that in an attempt to reason with those who claim they only believe in science, because if one has no reliable tradition to fall back on, one must be rational, and reason is what one must use to develop his world view. So, if you are “rational” and claim to base your arguments on “data” (as most claiming to be “rational” do until they find it inconvenient), then for you to dismiss the best scientific data to date, and opt for uncertainty, you are hardly being “rational,” are you?